Evidence of meeting #59 for Official Languages in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was groups.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Iain Benson  Executive Director, Centre for Cultural Renewal
Marcus Tabachnick  President, Quebec English School Boards Association
Tasha Kheiriddin  Professor, McGill University
Ghislaine Pilon  President, Commission nationale des parents francophones
Roger Gauthier  Executive Director, Association des parents fransaskois
David Birnbaum  Executive Director, Quebec English School Boards Association

9:55 a.m.

President, Quebec English School Boards Association

Marcus Tabachnick

When we appeared in December, we made a statement that consultation must take place before decisions are taken. We have never been contacted or asked or consulted on the issues before us. As I mentioned in my remarks, we are the forgotten minority in this country, and we find it incredible that we are never contacted to be part of any consultation process. And further, I'll state from our perspective that these hearings do not constitute proper consultation as required by the law.

As you mentioned, the barn door has already closed. The case has been decided, and now we're being asked for our opinion. I find it a little insulting, to tell you the truth. I think it's important that we be included in discussions, and that at some point, if decisions are going to be made, we be heard properly.

10 a.m.

Liberal

Raymonde Folco Liberal Laval—Les Îles, QC

Thank you.

The second question that I would like to ask you, Mr. Tabachnick, relates to exactly what you just said, that the English-language minority community in Quebec is a minority that seems to have been somewhat ignored or even forgotten. However, in light of progress due to legislation and Supreme Court decisions regarding the francophone community, or the minority francophone communities in Canada, could you tell us to what extent the decisions made, both by the courts and by the government, have had a—perhaps positive or negative, I don't know—influence on the position or situation of the anglophone community in Quebec?

10 a.m.

David Birnbaum Executive Director, Quebec English School Boards Association

The situation for both sides is extremely specific and important. If we talk about the evolution of minority linguistic rights with regard to education, first in response to the suggestion, which even the Commissioner has denied, that what has been done has already been done, there are 31 cases involving minority language rights and education that have yet to be resolved.

With regard to the Mahé case, which granted a very substantial right to manage minority schools, the actions taken by the anglophone community in this regard were funded by the program and were referred to in the judges' rulings. This ruling demonstrates, to some extent, that we have the power to manage our schools and school boards in Quebec.

I would remind anyone who suggests that the job is already done that there are new indications on the Quebec political scene that those school board structures could be under some danger. They are the absolute vital link to the community's vitality and development, and those are the responsibilities of this government. So to suggest that the program has already done what it has to do is completely erroneous.

And it's extremely important to note that when there is a cause that affects francophone minorities in the rest of the country, it affects us.

The other case we could point to is the Hôpital Montfort, which was absolutely pivotal for the minority language French community. Much of the decision was predicated on some very important work done in Quebec in terms of legislative guarantees for health and social services—again, made possible through interventions funded by the court challenges program.

10 a.m.

Liberal

Raymonde Folco Liberal Laval—Les Îles, QC

Thank you very much.

10 a.m.

Liberal

The Vice-Chair Liberal Pablo Rodriguez

Thank you.

We will continue with Mr. Nadeau.

June 14th, 2007 / 10 a.m.

Bloc

Richard Nadeau Bloc Gatineau, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Good morning everyone.

As Ms. Folco just said, there is a report that was adopted, and then printed, on our visit to French- and English-minority communities last fall. The report is entitled, "Communities speak out: Hear our voice. The Vitality of Official Language Minority Communities". This document exists. If you would like a copy, let me know after the meeting. The committee could send you one.

On page 131 of this report, it states:

All the organizations we met were unanimously and profoundly opposed to the Government of Canada's plan to cancel the Court Challenges Program.

A little bit later, the committee adopted Recommendation 26, which reads as follows:

That the Government of Canada reinstate the Court Challenges Program or create another program in order to meet objectives in the same way.

It's not as if we were starting from scratch. Things have been said and done. I want you to know that.

I would also like people to remember another very important thing. The program was reviewed in 1997 and in 2003. Someone mentioned this earlier and I will repeat it. Both reviews determined that it was an effective and accountable program. Furthermore, it provides taxpayers with value for their money. During the 1997 review, it was also mentioned that, since its creation, the program has enabled the facilitation of numerous disputes which have greatly helped to clarify constitutional law. For example, nearly all the disputes that, within Canada, concerned the rights of official language minorities to education in their own language were funded by this program. Furthermore, many of the applicants for funding would not have been able to defend their case or further proceed without the program's support. For many of them, the program was the only possible source of funding.

I want everyone here today to know this. In the 2003 review—and I will be very brief—it states that the review's findings also show that many other aspects of constitutional provisions targeted by the program have yet to be clarified. Data show that this clarification is an ongoing process and, apparently, this will always be the case.

I would add that, because society is evolving, we need to ensure that if the state is at fault and parents, volunteers or organizations want to prove this, they need to be able to represent themselves, on an equal footing, before the courts.

Unlike what Mr. Benson and Ms. Kheiriddin are saying, it's not about providing ideological assistance for one group or another. It's that the state arrives with its army of lawyers, and parents and volunteers, in order to save their hospital or to have a school consistent with a recognized constitutional right for which they've been fighting for 60 years, need to have the tools to take action. I would even go so far as to say that, following the adoption of Regulation 17 by Ontario in 1912, if Franco-Ontarians had had the opportunity at that time to avail themselves of the Court Challenges Program, we probably wouldn't have had to wait until 1990 for the right to manage francophone schools in Ontario. Just imagine: from 1912 to 1990, that's a very long period during which all those battles had to be fought.

Mr. Gauthier, you took part in a fight to ensure that Franco-Saskatchewanians, children and parents who wanted French to be the language of instruction at school could have their schools. In the time I have left, could you tell us about the steps that parents had to go through in order to demonstrate that their social fabric is directly affected when constitutional rights are not respected and a government, be it federal or provincial, does not do its job, forcing you to go to the courts to ensure respect for the Constitution?

10:05 a.m.

Liberal

The Vice-Chair Liberal Pablo Rodriguez

Have you finished your question?

10:05 a.m.

Bloc

Richard Nadeau Bloc Gatineau, QC

Yes, Mr. Rodriguez.

10:05 a.m.

Liberal

The Vice-Chair Liberal Pablo Rodriguez

It was short.

Mr. Gauthier.

10:05 a.m.

Executive Director, Association des parents fransaskois

Roger Gauthier

Thank you, Mr. Nadeau.

The steps concerned parents with children. The first step is the desire to educate our children. I will use the Gravelbourg case, in Saskatchewan, as an example, where parents were refused the right to have a Franco-Saskatchewanian school. They created an independent school that they had to manage themselves. They purchased materials and furniture, and paid the rent. Some parents took out a mortgage so that the employees and teachers hired could ensure a certain quality of life to the students.

The fact that parents have to fight to obtain an absolutely essential service, their children's education, is moving. Why do we have to fight for this, when it takes 10 years? We know that the final recourse is going to the courts to seek a ruling on such a case.

As Ms. Pilon said, every time that parents have had to go to court, they have won. But why did they have to fight? There are all kinds of ideological questions, there is indifference, no one necessarily cares because this is a minority and no one wants to jeopardize the position of the majority.

10:10 a.m.

Liberal

The Vice-Chair Liberal Pablo Rodriguez

Thank you.

That's all the time we have for Mr. Nadeau's question.

Ms. Savoie, it is your turn. You have seven minutes.

10:10 a.m.

NDP

Denise Savoie NDP Victoria, BC

Thank you very much, Mr. Rodriguez.

I apologize for being late.

I am replacing a colleague, but I am very concerned about this issue. I am from a minority community and I saw my parents fight to get French schools in Manitoba. Sometimes, we even had to hide our French books when the inspectors came to visit. Can you imagine! We saw the cultural fabric of our community disintegrate. Obviously, this was before the Court Challenges Program. We know now that there was some truly discriminatory legislation on the books.

The Court Challenges Program truly is extremely valuable in ensuring our rights as francophones. And I'm also talking about all the other minorities, obviously.

When I asked Mr. Toews, when he was minister, what we would lose by eliminating the Court Challenges Program, he answered quite casually that the Conservative government was going to simply adopt fair legislation. If those wonderful promises were kept, it would be easy to trample over many rights.

My question is this. Unfortunately, I was not able to hear your presentation, but I'd like to know what more could be done to convince this government of the merits or the interests of maintaining this program. If there are little things that need to be changed to ensure that it works for everyone, I think we would consider it. I wonder if we can make one last appeal to convince the government, which, to date in any case, has turned a deaf ear to our questions and comments.

10:10 a.m.

Executive Director, Quebec English School Boards Association

David Birnbaum

But if the survival and vitality of these communities are, as set out in the act, a concern of this government and, as Mr. Fraser said, there has been no consultation, hence they have not complied with the act. It seems self-evident to us that the program needs to be restored.

If the Charter is indivisible,

we expect this committee will understand that it is of course within its purview to look at both the equality and official languages provisions of the charter, given that they often intersect. There are many in our schools who are double minorities, so that's absolutely essential. If one of the impediments to renewing the program is that there are some perceived problems,

we refer you to comments made by André Pratte, Editor-in-Chief at La Presse newspaper, who said that the government had thought that the patient might have a cold, and the solution was to kill the patient.

Based on our experience with the program, the assessment and study of files has always been extremely rigorous. If there are any changes that need to be made, so much the better. But going from that to abolishing a program that cost a modest $2.3 million this year really raises questions. I believe that it is extremely important to say that, based on our understanding of it, the opposition that you have heard from linguistic minority groups would be echoed if equality measures in such a program were cut.

So the notion of separating the official languages aspects of this program from the equality ones is something we would find absolutely unacceptable.

10:15 a.m.

Professor, McGill University

Tasha Kheiriddin

If I could just comment there, I think that is exactly the problem. This committee is here to discuss official languages and the respect for official languages.

In answer to your question, Ms. Savoie, if you want to convince the government to protect linguistic minorities, you need simply tell it that it has to obey the law. Subsection 41(2) of the Official Languages Act requires the government, as a positive measure to establish a program like the Court Challenges Program in Canada. There is your answer.

If, from a legislative standpoint, a legal opinion says that the government does not need this particular program, the government will not be convinced. It is up to you, if you wish to make this happen. But restoring the Court Challenges Program in full—

I'll say it in English: it's like building an elephant gun to kill a mouse. It is going beyond the ambit of language laws, and if you look at the charter, very clearly, you will see that the sections on the official languages of Canada—sections 16 to 23—take up a very large part of our charter.

I would put to you that language laws have a special place within the Canadian fabric and constitution, and if your goal is to protect them, it is not by bringing back the program that Mr. Benson and I explained has a lot of problems, but to create something that addresses your specific needs. That is why I said....

And I really take exception to some of the comments made,

particularly by Ms. Folco and Mr. Nadeau. You did not listen to me. I didn't say that I was opposed to protecting linguistic minorities at all. I said that—

10:15 a.m.

NDP

Denise Savoie NDP Victoria, BC

Please answer my questions, for now.

10:15 a.m.

Professor, McGill University

Tasha Kheiriddin

Yes, your question is—

10:15 a.m.

NDP

Denise Savoie NDP Victoria, BC

I would simply like to add that poor people have just as much right to housing as rich people—

10:15 a.m.

Professor, McGill University

Tasha Kheiriddin

That is not the issue.

10:15 a.m.

NDP

Denise Savoie NDP Victoria, BC

—food, but often they cannot avail themselves of those rights because they live in poverty.

It is somewhat the same when it comes to linguistic rights. If you don't have the means to avail yourself of your rights, ultimately, those rights exist only on paper.

10:15 a.m.

Professor, McGill University

Tasha Kheiriddin

And that is why I said—

10:15 a.m.

NDP

Denise Savoie NDP Victoria, BC

They are no longer rights.

10:15 a.m.

Professor, McGill University

Tasha Kheiriddin

That is why I said that if you want to restore a program that specifically meets your needs, if that is how the government should ensure that it complies with the act and section 41(2), that is your future. But we don't need to say that the program as a whole has to be restored.

10:15 a.m.

NDP

Denise Savoie NDP Victoria, BC

Thank you.

I would like to make a few comments before—

10:15 a.m.

Liberal

The Vice-Chair Liberal Pablo Rodriguez

Ms. Savoie, unfortunately, that is all the time we have.

We will conclude our first round with Ms. Boucher.

10:15 a.m.

Conservative

Sylvie Boucher Conservative Beauport—Limoilou, QC

Good morning, everyone. I want to thank you for coming. It's always interesting to learn everyone's perspective, and we are taking notes.

My question is for members of the Quebec English School Boards Association. Last week, we met with representatives of the CCP, who mentioned that the program had been created to fund court cases that advance equality and linguistic rights guaranteed by the Canadian Constitution or the Charter.

The documentation provided, states, “A case is a test case only if it deals with a problem or raises an argument that has not already been decided by the courts." This case must help official language minority communities in Canada to protect their linguistic rights.

I have a simple question. If I understand correctly, your association was directly involved...

You cannot hear me?