Evidence of meeting #24 for Official Languages in the 39th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was consultations.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Bernard Lord  Special Advisor for the Consultations on Linguistic Duality and Official Languages, Government of Canada

10 a.m.

Special Advisor for the Consultations on Linguistic Duality and Official Languages, Government of Canada

Bernard Lord

Mr. D'Amours, I don't have those numbers with me. I did ask to be informed by the people who were working with me. I learned that, at the outset of the program, $751 million had been allocated over five years and that $810 million had been invested in total. I do not have the exact figures for the last two years.

10 a.m.

Liberal

Jean-Claude D'Amours Liberal Madawaska—Restigouche, NB

Mr. Lord, you are referring to a projected figure; that was the amount in the overall envelope. That does not necessarily mean that the money was spent or invested. Your analysis was based on the money that was spent and invested over the past few years. You said that you might have those figures. Our analyst is unable to come up with the budgeted amounts, but he has identified the sums invested in communities under the Action Plan for Official Languages.

We do not have to start with the first year of the action plan. We can take years four and five, and extrapolate from there. If that is where you looked to establish the $1 billion amount, how can you figure out those amounts when you cannot even determine what was spent or invested during the last two years? Do not talk to me about budgets. I want to know how much money was spent and how you came up with your $1 billion.

Finally, if the analysis was so wide-ranging, why were you unable to find $2.5 million for the Court Challenges Program?

10 a.m.

Special Advisor for the Consultations on Linguistic Duality and Official Languages, Government of Canada

Bernard Lord

Mr. D'Amours, your questions are completely unrelated. Those are two totally different questions.

As I told you, with regard to the information that I received, my report was tabled before the end of the fiscal year. You will have to wait for the Auditor General's report to know exactly how much money was invested this past year. I take it that Parliament has a Public Accounts Committee. That should give you the opportunity to find out exactly where the money was spent.

10 a.m.

Liberal

Jean-Claude D'Amours Liberal Madawaska—Restigouche, NB

The year preceding this one...

10 a.m.

Special Advisor for the Consultations on Linguistic Duality and Official Languages, Government of Canada

Bernard Lord

Mr. D'Amours, you asked me two questions. Please allow me to respond.

I used the information that was given to me. Can I determine precisely how much money was spent this year before all the numbers are in? You will agree with me that the answer is no because the fiscal year had not yet ended. I therefore relied on the information at my disposal, i.e., the projections of what had been invested and spent, to use your terms, over a five-year period.

10:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Steven Blaney

Mr. D'Amours, you have 30 seconds remaining.

10:05 a.m.

Special Advisor for the Consultations on Linguistic Duality and Official Languages, Government of Canada

Bernard Lord

Mr. D'Amours, you asked me two questions.

10:05 a.m.

Liberal

Jean-Claude D'Amours Liberal Madawaska—Restigouche, NB

I will come back to the Court Challenges Program later.

We have the figures for fiscal year 2006-2007. How much was invested through the Action Plan for Official Languages? You say that the figures were not established because your report had not been completed, and so on and so forth. But as for fiscal 2006-2007, the year ending March 31, 2007, what is the amount invested as part of the Action Plan for official Languages?

10:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Steven Blaney

Mr. Lord, I would ask you to be brief.

10:05 a.m.

Special Advisor for the Consultations on Linguistic Duality and Official Languages, Government of Canada

Bernard Lord

Yes.

Mr. D'Amours, what I said was that my report was completed before the end of this fiscal year. I do not have with me the figures for 2006-2007.

10:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Steven Blaney

Thank you very much.

I forgot to indicate that we are on the third round of questions. Mr. D'Amours was the only member on my list. If others wish to speak, please let me know.

I will give the floor to Mr. Nadeau from the Bloc Québécois.

10:05 a.m.

Bloc

Richard Nadeau Bloc Gatineau, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Lord, your mandate was to meet with the communities, but we know that you also met with the language industry, which is a sector that is separate from the communities targeted by the action plan.

Was the meeting with the language industry held on your own initiative or was it suggested to you based on a list of groups that could be heard from?

10:05 a.m.

Special Advisor for the Consultations on Linguistic Duality and Official Languages, Government of Canada

Bernard Lord

I met with the language industry on a number of occasions, given that some of their representatives sit on various consultation committees. The department prepared the list of groups and sent out invitations. Subsequently, some individuals and groups contacted me directly and asked to be heard. I agreed to their requests. Language industry representatives, among others, asked to meet me and I accepted. I decided to meet with certain individuals or groups, whether it was during the meetings that I had to chair or at another time.

10:05 a.m.

Bloc

Richard Nadeau Bloc Gatineau, QC

I know that some of those people, at least those in the group that you met, are from the area, from the Quebec side of the Ottawa river. At that time, was there any particular reason why you decided not to meet with federal government officials or not to include the public service in your list of people to consult on the issue of official languages?

10:05 a.m.

Special Advisor for the Consultations on Linguistic Duality and Official Languages, Government of Canada

Bernard Lord

As I indicated, the list of participants at the consultation meetings held from Vancouver to Halifax was prepared by the department. My mandate was to chair and moderate those meetings and to produce a report, which I did. I received a number of requests for meetings, some of which I accepted. I accepted some and turned others down. I do not recall if the union or public service groups asked to meet with me.

10:05 a.m.

Bloc

Richard Nadeau Bloc Gatineau, QC

Your report—and I say this with all due respect for your qualifications to carry out such a mandate—adds nothing new to the three reports that we have published since our tour in the fall of 2006. Earlier, in response to my Liberal and NDP colleagues, you mentioned that there was some overlap. In fact, it is a duplication of work. The only thing new is the issue of funding.

At the time when I worked for the Fédération de la jeunesse canadienne française, a study by Roger Bernard indicated that it would take several billions of dollars to achieve equality between French and English in Canada, that is, if we wanted to come back to the time when assimilation had less of a negative impact or had not yet become this appalling process by which many French-speakers have lost their language and culture.

In your report, you proposed a $1 billion amount. I read that $802 million, or $810 million, had been invested over the past five years. You suggest the $1 billion dollar figure. How will that money be spent, and based on what criteria? How are the funds to be channelled? You say that that is a bare minimum. Perhaps the sky is the limit, but how did you come to that number? You have lived in the Francophonie, in Acadia, where every day... I was born in Ontario and I lived many years in Saskatchewan. I was also an activist in the Franco-Saskatchewanian community. There is so much work to be done.

Why put forward the $1 billion dollar amount? Why not more? How did you settle on that amount?

10:10 a.m.

Special Advisor for the Consultations on Linguistic Duality and Official Languages, Government of Canada

Bernard Lord

As I indicated earlier, when I prepared the report on the consultations and the elements gathered from the questions that we asked—significant elements, in my mind, including education, the arts, culture and health—I assessed the investments that had been made, the expenditures that the government had made and planned for as part of the five-year action plan for official languages. I believed that the report had to put forward a minimum amount. In other forums and interviews, I also said that in addition to the billion dollars there would also need to be... If the government chooses to invest $1 billion over five years, it will still have to establish priorities and make choices. In any case, that is the role of government leaders. That is their responsibility.

10:10 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Steven Blaney

Thank you, Mr. Nadeau.

We'll now turn to the government, with Michael Chong.

10:10 a.m.

Conservative

Michael Chong Conservative Wellington—Halton Hills, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Lord, for your testimony.

You indicated in your report that the education system is crucial and the previous government indicated the same thing in 2003 when they created the Action Plan for Official Languages.

The previous government indicated the same thing in 2003 when they created the action plan on official languages: that the education system was critical in it. At the time, they set a ten-year goal of doubling the number of bilingual graduates, bilingual students in Canada. At the time, in 2003, approximately one-quarter or 25% of all students were functionally bilingual. They set a goal of doubling the number of students to about 50% by 2013.

As the first action plan on official languages provided investments to meet these targets, how effective was it in getting to that goal by 2013?

10:10 a.m.

Special Advisor for the Consultations on Linguistic Duality and Official Languages, Government of Canada

Bernard Lord

Thank you very much for the question.

The data we saw in the last census seems to indicate that the government—and the country, frankly—is not close to that target. The support for learning languages is important. There's a partnership that is essential with provincial governments, because education is, as you know, primarily a provincial responsibility. As well, the partnership must extend to parents.

What I heard across the country is that in many situations you have parents who will wait in line, sometimes for days, to make sure that their children or their child, son or daughter, can enrol in an immersion program. What we see across the country is that there are a lot of parents who understand that languages are great tools for the development of their children.

Setting goals is noble, but the goals must be realistic as well. I could say today that I want to play golf like Tiger Woods in five years, but I don't think it's going to happen. I wish it would, but it's not going to happen. So just setting goals by itself is not enough. They need to be realistic goals.

10:10 a.m.

Conservative

Michael Chong Conservative Wellington—Halton Hills, ON

Thank you.

If we were at 25% or 24% in 2003, do you have any idea where we are today?

10:10 a.m.

Special Advisor for the Consultations on Linguistic Duality and Official Languages, Government of Canada

Bernard Lord

I don't have the exact number with me, but I know it came up in the consultations, and we're not close to 50% or 70%.

I must say, Mr. Chong, that when I was premier of New Brunswick, we had set a goal of 70% in the province of New Brunswick, and the province of New Brunswick is not yet reaching that goal either. I actually think it will be more difficult now than it was before, because the Government of New Brunswick has decided to eliminate the early immersion program. I think it will go contrary to that objective.

What we see is that parents want to make sure that their children learn, of course, the first language properly, but also more and more parents realize the benefits of learning a second language. And I think more and more parents realize that a third or fourth language, in this world in the 21st century, is an asset for the child; it's an asset for us all.

10:15 a.m.

Conservative

Michael Chong Conservative Wellington—Halton Hills, ON

Could you tell us how the recommendations in your report will help us increase the number of bilingual graduates?

10:15 a.m.

Special Advisor for the Consultations on Linguistic Duality and Official Languages, Government of Canada

Bernard Lord

Recommendation 1 precisely deals with education of the first language, but as well the education of the other official language. I think it's important to ensure that we have programs that work in collaboration with provinces, with school districts, to support learning of the other official language and languages overall.

Canada is great with two official languages, but with the wealth of knowledge that we have coming from immigrants who come from around the world, the opportunities we have for more Canadians to learn even more languages is an opportunity that I think we need to seize as a country. That will help us, as I say, for the individuals who speak more than one or two or three languages, but as well for the country to have individuals who speak more than one, two, or three languages.

10:15 a.m.

Conservative

Michael Chong Conservative Wellington—Halton Hills, ON

Thank you.