Official Languages Committee on April 10th, 2008

[Denis Coderre, Liberal, Bourassa, QC]

That's good.

[Jean-Pierre Corbeil]

It is a debate. You are absolutely right to raise it. We are examining the issue in order to try and come up with solutions.

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

Thank you very much, Mr. Coderre.

We will now go back to the government side with Mr. Petit.

[Daniel Petit, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Thank you.

Thank you for coming today, Mr. Corbeil. A little earlier, you read a text. It is my understanding that you will table it with us, because you covered so many things in it! I made notes, but I could not keep up with you, in some cases. Will you table it with us?

[Jean-Pierre Corbeil]

Yes, of course.

[Daniel Petit, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Thank you very much. I am going to continue on the question of allophones. I have a problem with the word "allophone". I am an immigrant, I was not born in Quebec. My parents were Belgian, but they came from both linguistic communities, in other words, they were an exogamous couple: one was Flemish, and other Walloon. I learned both languages in the cradle, it is as simple as that. When I went to school, I was also confronted with two languages. When I came to Canada, I joined the francophone community and, naturally, the language spoken outside the home was French. At home, it was both languages.

When we responded to the census... Even today, questions have been modified to make them somewhat easier, but they still complicate our lives. The question of language spoken at home does not provide useful information. I don't know if you understand what I mean. I am trying to get you to understand that we speak both languages at home. Even now, two languages are spoken in our home: English and French. My children are bilingual. So what is their spoken language or their mother tongue? They both are.

I have a problem with the definition of the word "allophone", and I would say the word has pejorative connotations. I feel somewhat excluded because in reality, it is as if I were being excluded from one of the two communities and that I am being asked to make a choice. I speak both languages; I speak four, in some cases. This is a problem when statistics are compiled, because they do not necessarily reflect why I am in Canada.

Immigrants come to Canada primarily for work, perhaps also to change their lives, to have a better life, and so on. When we move and when we arrive in an area, for example that is francophone, if we see... For example, in 1958, when we arrived, Montreal was the metropolis of Canada. Today, it is Toronto. We go where the work is, we move around. We choose a community when we arrive, and often, we don't know what to do because we are in a community, but work draws us to another community.

When you do your censuses, the word "allophone" causes a problem for me; it literally causes a problem for me. I cannot follow your statistics. That is why I would like to get some answers from you.

I would like to ask you a more specific question about the work environment, as that is nevertheless an important aspect. When I work, I work in French. Outside Quebec, the use of French seems to have increased. I am talking about francophones outside Quebec, because that is the specific topic. At least French is being used more now in francophone minority communities. Is that correct? That appears in your document, it seems to me, but I cannot understand it. I would like some further explanation.

[Jean-Pierre Corbeil]

If I may, I will try to answer your first question as simply and clearly as possible. It is clear that the term "allophone"—which originated in Quebec, by the way—has Greek roots. "Allos" means "other," and "phone" means "language." Moreover, sometimes people use "other mother tongue," that is, neither English nor French, but a mother tongue other than English or French. So it can be very technical.

The second part of the question is that, in principle, if both English and French are used equally in the home, people will indicate "French and English" on the census form. If French is used more but English is also used regularly in the home, respondents will indicate "French or English" in response to the second part of the question, which asks whether other languages are spoken regularly in the home.

Although it can be confusing, Statistics Canada collects this information, and people can decide whether someone who uses both languages regularly at home should be defined as bilingual or as someone who is francophone or anglophone. It is quite involved, and people choose option A versus option B. People interested in the situation of francophones outside Quebec will classify those who speak a language other than French in the home as being francophone. If I am interested in the situation of anglophones, I will put them with the anglophones.

So people choose how to use this information, but when you fill out your questionnaire, the question should be clear, in principle. If you indicate both languages, it means that you use them equally. Other people do not decide for you whether you are an anglophone or a francophone.

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

Exactly.

[Jean-Pierre Corbeil]

That said, that is one aspect. I have to admit that the task of Statistics Canada or any agency that collects this kind of information is to create a sort of societal map and put people into categories. When this kind of categorization takes place, people clearly do not accept being put into one category rather than another one. It is really up to people to decide whether they belong in one category or another.

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

Very good. Thank you.

[Jean-Pierre Corbeil]

Concerning your question on the language of work—

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

Please be brief, Mr. Corbeil.

[Jean-Pierre Corbeil]

Concerning your question about language of work, it turns out that the proportion of francophones outside Quebec who indicate that they use French most often at work has remained stable over the past two censuses. On the other hand, in response to the question you mentioned regarding the use of another language, people often give English as their answer.

So when we ask whether people use another language regularly in the workplace, we find a slight increase in the number of francophones who say that they use French regularly. It also depends on the type of work francophones are doing. We know that francophones tend to work in health care, education and certain industrial sectors. So there may be an increase in the use of French there.

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

Thank you, Mr. Corbeil.

We will now go to—

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

I would like to add my name to the list, since I—

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

Mr. Gravel, we will—

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

—did not speak earlier.

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

I am adding your name, Mr. Godin. I would ask the clerk to take note of that.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Thank you. You are very kind.

[Raymond Gravel, Bloc, Repentigny, QC]

Thank you for coming here today, Mr. Corbeil.

I was surprised when you said in your presentation that anglophones in Quebec were not more pessimistic about their future than francophones outside Quebec. How can people be pessimistic when they are anglophones in Canada, whether they live in Quebec or elsewhere? How can they be pessimistic when they are surrounded by a sea of anglophones? I find that quite strange.

How is it that francophones outside Quebec are not pessimistic about their future, when they represent an ever-shrinking portion of the population?

[Jean-Pierre Corbeil]

That is an interesting paradox, if I can use that term. People were asked about changes in the amount of English used in Quebec and French used outside Quebec. In Quebec, anglophone adults were asked about changes in the use of English in their communities over the past 10 years. Nearly 30% of anglophones in Quebec indicated that less English was used over the previous 10 years. When they were asked about what the trend would be over the next 10 years, approximately the same percentage of people indicated that the amount of English used would continue to decrease. An interesting paradox is that English use has actually increased in Quebec over the past five years.

Outside Quebec, the situation is different. What is the reason for this? What I am going to say is not based on statistics but on perceptions. When people have a lot of rights, resources, institutions, etc. and a slight reduction in these occurs, people perceive a decrease. But when there are not many institutions and there is a slight increase, people are very positive because they see an improvement.

Many people have said that anglophone communities in Quebec have a certain level of resources, institutions, etc. Regardless of how the situation is changing, you know that allophones basically have no choice but to send their children to French school under Bill 101. How is that obligation perceived by anglophones in Quebec? Obviously, it is seen as a very difficult situation. On the other hand, outside Quebec, if there is an increase, even a small one, in the number of children attending French schools—even if it is far below the level among anglophones in Quebec—it is seen as something positive and people feel some optimism.

[Raymond Gravel, Bloc, Repentigny, QC]

Do anglophones in Quebec realize that, even though francophones are the majority in Quebec, we need to defend the French language because we are threatened as a result of being entirely surrounded by anglophones? I think that they should understand this.

I want to turn now to the table on page 4, which deals with francophones outside Quebec. Older people have continued to use French but they have not necessarily passed it on to their children, and the younger people do not necessarily speak French. They have been assimilated and anglicized. To [inaudible] Bernard Derome's phrase "if the trend continues," when will the French fact disappear from Canada? Are there specific dates for that? If the use of French continues to decline, it will disappear completely at some point.

[Jean-Pierre Corbeil]

You can understand that I am not able to make that kind of prognosis. All that I can say is that there are clearly people right now who are counting on certain factors, including immigration, to try to reverse the trend. As has already been mentioned, if more children attend minority French schools, it can lead to greater use of French by minority communities.

There is debate over this. Transmission of the language to a younger generation is a major challenge. If that does not happen, it may be difficult to expect immigrants to act differently from the minority communities. There are some major challenges. I could not really say how the situation of French outside Quebec will evolve over the next 30 or 40 years. There seems to be some vitality there, according to the studies that have been done. The dynamism in these communities is quite impressive and it seems to indicate a gap between people's perceptions and their behaviour.

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

Thank you very much, Mr. Gravel and Mr. Corbeil.

We will now go back to Mr. Godin.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

There's a point that I want to raise. I would not want to be in Mr. Nadeau's shoes tonight when he goes home. I am sure that his wife thought that he had chosen her instead of Quebec. When he moved to Quebec, it was because he loved his wife and she was from Quebec. Tonight she will find out that he was actually choosing Quebec.

You are going to get an earful tonight!