Official Languages Committee on April 17th, 2008

[Wilfrid Denis]

You are absolutely right about the transition from the Association culturelle franco-canadienne, the ACFC, to the ACF.

Within the ACFC, the sectoral bodies, including those dealing with culture and economic development, as well as artists, had the biggest budgets and had a lot of resource people. As a result, they dominated discussions and debates, as well as the distribution of resources within the provincial community. That was the problem the Franco-Saskatchewanian community tried to fix.

The sectoral bodies have a connection problem. The ACF recognizes that and wants to fix it.

[Richard Nadeau, Bloc, Gatineau, QC]

Mr. Thériault, could you give us some examples of proposed models that were inadequate? We have to be constructive and mindful of not getting stuck in the same old ruts that have caused problems.

[Prof. Joseph-Yvon Thériault]

I understand that the example you just gave is problematic. We cannot avoid francophone communities being represented by their institutions.

The opposite problem was raised. Organizations funded by Canadian Heritage have a budget and have become representative organizations. However, that causes a major problem. All of a sudden, the community defines itself by the budgets of officials from Canadian Heritage. We academics are not funded by Canadian Heritage. We do not participate in community discussions.

However, as soon as the organizations decided to include health, they got funding. That is problematic for all communities currently. People say we need to come up with governance mechanisms that are not just based on functionality, but that reflect community reality. When a community plan is established, funded organizations are invited to the table. Since fishers are not funded, they are not there.

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

Quickly, Mr. Thériault.

[Prof. Joseph-Yvon Thériault]

There are other policies. Belgium is never a good example, but in that country, 70,000 German-speakers have their own little government. They do not assimilate, those German-speakers.

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

Thank, Mr. Thériault.

We now going to go to Mr. Lebel.

[Denis Lebel, Conservative, Roberval—Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you, gentlemen, for being here. Your comments will surely move our thinking along.

Mr. Jedwab referred earlier to being realistic about possible results. That is always very important. You also talked about that, gentlemen. We can decide as people are getting off the plane that French is the language they are going to speak in Canada, but you have to be realistic and consider those people's choices. It is not always easy.

Where I am from, in the Lac-Saint-Jean area, schools are also being closed, Mr. Godin, but it is because there are no students left to fill them. When they are used, it is for other purposes, to accommodate other people. There is a whole economic reality behind school-closure decisions. I am talking about schools that have been closed, but subsequently turned over to other people. In any event, I do not know the details of all that.

My question is about exogamous families. I believe Mr. Jedwab is well aware of the situation of anglophones in Quebec. Do you think more anglophones in Quebec are now speaking French? Are they more bilingual than before?

As for exogamous families, I know that you focus more on the sociological aspect. When it comes to statistics, mother tongue can lead us off the right track. In addition to the factual aspect, shouldn't we also consider the subjective side of statistics?

[Jack Jedwab]

Yes, we have seen extraordinary progress among anglophones in the past 30 years when it comes to bilingualism. That's for sure. I'm talking here about French as a second language. Around 85% of young anglophones say they can speak French. I'm not talking about the quality of the French they speak, but the fact that they can communicate in French.

In my opinion, the willingness of anglophones to learn French is quite substantial. In the school where my daughters are in immersion, the demand was so high among anglophones that we had to wait for 36 hours to enrol. I think the willingness is there and it's largely due to Bill 101. Apart from its coercive dimension toward immigrants, which we aren't necessarily going to get into now, it lets Quebec anglophones know they are expected to speak French, and that it's important to speak French in order to live in Quebec.

[Prof. Joseph-Yvon Thériault]

Mr. Jedwab mentioned earlier an 80% exogamy rate, because in some regions, it was 50%, 55% or 70% and it was 15% just for New Brunswick. I don't think we can ask francophones outside Quebec to be any more open. Any more open than that and you're a goner.

When over 80% of people in one community marry people from another community, you don't ask them to be more open to that other community, but you do ask whether they truly constitute a community. If it were random, you would probably more often marry within your own community. People usually get married to people they know.

The effort that needs to be made, in terms of this openness that is so valued by all today, has to do with finding a way of maintaining an identity boundary. In 80% of cases, Franco-Ontarians marry anglophones. They cannot be asked to be any more open to anglophones, but under the circumstances, how do we rebuild places of solidarity?

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

Thank you very much, Mr. Lebel.

Mr. Godin, you have three minutes.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Mr. Lebel talked about school closures, but what I was talking about was federal cuts to school programs. That's what happened at Calvin Christian School in Hamilton. Moneys were transferred to the province in order for courses to be provided. The letter is quite clear on that. It indicates that the criteria apply from now on only to secondary schools. Primary schools lost their programs.

[Prof. Joseph-Yvon Thériault]

That's what happened in New Brunswick. Is that how the Government of New Brunswick also justifies the cancellation of immersion?

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

The government didn't say that was why. That's not what we heard.

A bit earlier, you were talking about television, about CBC or Radio-Canada. You said that the public television channels could promote our languages.

Could you tell us quickly, Mr. Jedwab, whether the CBC made a mistake when it didn't want to televise Claude Dubois' performance? Do you think anglophones would have changed the channel if they had heard Claude Dubois? The vice-president of the CBC said that if CBC Television broadcast a francophone singer, they would lose their entire audience. Do you agree?

[Jack Jedwab]

No.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Good, I want answers. We have only three minutes.

[Prof. Joseph-Yvon Thériault]

Radio-Canada said the same thing about an Acadian.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

I mentioned that. It's not Radio-Canada, it's “Radio-Montreal”.

[Wilfrid Denis]

I think we have to take this further than that one incident. The larger issue is about having a program to value linguistic duality year-round, and that should be broadcast by anglophone media, not just the CBC but also the private sector. When do we hear songs in French in the English-speaking media, except for maybe one or two a day, to let the rest of Canada know...?

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

We never would have known that. That's what I said last week.

[Wilfrid Denis]

Yes.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

In your opinion, did CBC make a mistake?

[Wilfrid Denis]

Yes, in my opinion it made a mistake.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

Thank you very much, Mr. Godin.

On that note, I want to thank the witnesses who have given us a greater understanding, with regard to subjects as diverse as bilingualism, the national language, institutional tools, territorialization, service delivery by institutions and social marketing. You have really contributed to our discussion and our understanding. All this will help us in doing our work. We want to thank you very much for coming to meet with us.

Mr. Petit, you have the floor.

[Daniel Petit, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Point of order. A little earlier, Mr. Denis shared with us his conclusions. Could we have those conclusions in writing? Have they already been prepared?