Official Languages Committee on May 1st, 2008

[Denis Coderre, Liberal, Bourassa, QC]

Good morning, everyone, and thank you for being here today.

I will try to be a little more specific, since you did put forward a number of options. It's all very well to say that services are needed, but I believe that everything starts with how resources are managed, and how resources are provided.

Mr. Boucher, you talked about managing priorities. Ms. Simard talked about some review of how funding is spent. I would like to know how you receive your funding.

I understand that we must not set one region against another. So you do of course need a basic amount, but even if we don't talk about indexation we do need an additional calculation to ensure that resources are indeed sufficient to meet the needs of a given French-speaking community within the broader French-speaking community. That is just an idea I am putting forward. Earlier, you talked about improving and increasing funding, and I would like to hear more on that, Ms. Simard.

What would happen if we were to establish a kind of representation index, which would exist alongside the existing system, but take nothing away from the other regions—since we know you need a certain amount to provide basic services at least. For example, Prince Edward Island has the coast guard, and we are very eager to hear them; they will probably be hearing some choice words. There are services like those for which we have signed framework agreements with New Brunswick governing foreign students. We have signed an agreement on immigration. I would like us to put our minds together and see how the government should be providing more funding. Mr. Lord has done his public relations exercise, and has come up with a figure of $1 billion. However, that figure doesn't mean anything.

So when we talk about calculations, what would you say to a representation index, in addition to the basic amount provided by a province? How would you feel about that? How would the French-language minority community and to some extent the English-language minority communities in Quebec, feel about that?

Mr. Boucher.

[Daniel Boucher]

It might take an equalization formula that is less complicated than yours. I think that, instead of coming up with figures that mean nothing, we should conduct more sophisticated analyses. Needs in individual communities differ. The places are different, and so are the needs.

We recognize that some provinces are underfunded. So we have to start by raising the bar. We should all have the minimum amount needed to meet the needs of our communities. At the same time, we need to go further in some areas, and we have to examine that issue. For example, immigration is an important area for us. We will be asking the federal government for funding, depending on our needs. We will not be asking for an amount that covers only half the work. Within two years, we will be welcoming 700 francophone immigrants per year. At present, we receive half of all refugees going to Manitoba. They are francophones. So we need a different funding formula, and a different approach. In our view, that is just common sense.

[Denis Coderre, Liberal, Bourassa, QC]

So you do agree there should be an equalization formula.

[Daniel Boucher]

Yes, but it has to pass the common-sense test.

[Marie-Pierre Simard]

Since this approach would be advantageous to us, I believe it is very useful, and fairer. It would make it possible for us to catch our breath, and get back in control. The national average is $22 per person. Volunteer contributions in New Brunswick amount to $50 per person, and we receive $10 per person from Canadian Heritage. In New Brunswick, the number of people who are francophones by birth is equivalent to the entire francophone population of seven provinces and territories, provided we exclude Ontario. So we do carry some weight.

[Denis Coderre, Liberal, Bourassa, QC]

It would therefore require a measure of fairness.

Mr. Lamoureux, are you angry?

[Daniel Lamoureux]

We are not in favour of per capita calculations. We are the smallest of the French-Canadian communities. We comprise some 700 to 800 people distributed over two million square kilometres. In Nunavut, the average is one person per 70 square kilometres. So we are not in favour of per capita calculations. We would prefer to see symmetry, as Daniel was saying. There are many other ways of looking at the issue than on the basis of per capita distribution.

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

Thank you, Mr. Coderre.

[Denis Coderre, Liberal, Bourassa, QC]

They might perhaps be able to answer very briefly, since I have no other questions. It will be very quick.

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

Please be brief.

[Denis Perreaux]

The network we are all a part of is now considering the issue. However, measures to reduce assimilation go beyond traditional economic and demographic factors. There are aspects tied to the vitality of communities. Sometimes, measures turn out to be useless, and sometimes, they work better in some places than in others. In some places, avoiding major problems is enough. I think we have to look at somewhat more flexible sociological factors in order to come up with a fair formula.

[Lizanne Thorne]

In our view, it is just as important to have a basic per capita amount, as well as complementary funding for institutions in each of the provinces. In some provinces, there are many more francophones than in others, but there are more services as well. There are few francophones in my province, but we lack many services. We have to devote a great deal of effort and energy to increasing the basic services provided by governments and municipalities.

[Denis Coderre, Liberal, Bourassa, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

Thank you, Mr. Coderre.

I saw that a number of people were having their own discussions while our witnesses were speaking. Please go outside the room for your private conversations, because the background noise is disruptive.

We will now continue with Mr. Denis Lebel, a member on the government side.

[Denis Lebel, Conservative, Roberval—Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. Thank you for being here today.

As a member newly elected in September in a riding that is almost 99% francophone, Lac-Saint-Jean, I'm very happy to be hearing your comments.

[Denis Coderre, Liberal, Bourassa, QC]

Unfortunately, it's only for two years.

[Denis Lebel, Conservative, Roberval—Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

I beg your pardon?

[Pablo Rodriguez, Liberal, Honoré-Mercier, QC]

It's only a two-year term.

[Denis Lebel, Conservative, Roberval—Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Mr. Coderre, you have been a member of the government for 13 years. I am listening to our witnesses talk about what you have achieved in those 13 years—an agreement signed in 1994. All I am hearing dates back to the time when you were minister, Mr. Coderre. I hope to be a member of Parliament for more than two years so that I can remedy this. It will not take me 13 years.

[Daniel Petit, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

It will not take 14 years.

[Denis Lebel, Conservative, Roberval—Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Ladies and gentlemen, I am very happy to see you here this morning. The crucial thing here is official languages, and we have to look to the future. Demographic changes in Canada are undoubtedly creating new needs. I have a question on that, but before I put it to you I would like to make a comment.

Earlier, Mr. Lamoureux talked about a link between the government and the funding paid. In Quebec, I was vice-president of the Saguenay-Lac-Saint-Jean Health and Social Services Agency. I am therefore well aware that funding is allocated to health before it moves on to the association network in a given region. That is part of the regional strategic planning process. All departments are accountable to every region. I don't want people to think that associations in Quebec receive funding without being accountable for it. That is not how things work. That is not how things work at the federal level either, and that is how it should be. Accountability is not an issue for you, nor is it for us. We are here to be properly accountable.

Given the geography of the provinces, specialized health care often has to be sought elsewhere. That is not just because of language. In Lac-Saint-Jean, we have our children treated at the Sainte-Justine Children's Hospital in Montreal, which is 500 km away from where I live but I have no choice but to take them there. In your province, New Brunswick, there are also language-related and geographical realities that need to be taken into account. That said, demographic movements undoubtedly lead to a need for new services. I don't think that this is a public relations issue.

The present government takes official languages very seriously. We want to move forward. That billion dollars will be defined—but now what it expresses is a willingness to recognize needs engendered by such factors as new arrivals and an aging population. Earlier, we heard that needs were increasing. Are new organizations or associations knocking at your door? Are new organizations being created? Are existing organizations closing? What impact are these new arrivals having in your area? I understand that the organizations all want more funding.

[Denis Perreaux]

You cannot increase the number of associations to meet needs created by new arrivals. The limiting factor is the agreement, which is for a fixed amount. If we are to give money to one organization, we have to cut it from somewhere else. We have to make do with what we have. We have often said that funding should be gradually increased. At present, we are bit like a financial nursery. We work with the province and municipalities to create service agencies, that are then funded by the province. Nowadays, we are relying much more on that than on the agreement. We are getting good results. We have to recognize that all this takes a lot of work. That is the approach we are using to meet our needs.

[Bruno Godin, Executive Director, Société des Acadiens et Acadiennes du Nouveau-Brunswick]

In New Brunswick, new services are being requested. New Brunswick is often used as an example because it is the only officially bilingual province in Canada. That comes with a responsibility; people expect to receive services in French.

The number of organizations has increased over the past few years. As my colleagues pointed out, there is no indexation. The funding envelope is set for five years. There are new organizations offering new services and they have to use the same funding envelope as the others. In order to provide enough funding and new services, money has to be taken away from others. Society is evolving. We're robbing Peter to pay Paul. Are we coming out the better for it? I'm not so sure.

[Daniel Boucher]

The Société franco-manitobaine is a reception service agency for newcomers. In three years our staff has gone from one to six. The needs are enormous. We welcome approximately 400 francophone immigrants per year. Our goal is to be able to accommodate 700 and to continue to increase that number. All organizations need to be involved in order to make this project a success. It's becoming more and more difficult as the needs increase. Many refugees have very specific needs related to trauma and very significant social problems. We have to find a way to serve them. We have to see how we can meet these needs in the short and long term. We still don't have the means to do so. Our funding mainly comes from the province of Manitoba and from a CIC contribution for specific projects.

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

Thank you very much, Mr. Lebel.

I will now give the floor to Mr. Jean-Yves Roy.