Official Languages Committee on May 27th, 2008

[Denis Lebel, Conservative, Roberval—Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Good morning, Mr. Lacroix. Thank you for your presentation, which has put us in the right frame of mind to deal with your appearance here this morning.

For me, this sorts out perceptions. We're contemplating the future with a great deal of interest. Our role is to promote our country's official languages and to ensure they are well respected.

You mentioned a number of times that it would be possible to do better in the future. However, when Mr. Stursberg appeared, I asked him whether that was a business decision. His answer was sort of yes and sort of no, then, on the subject of funding and money, he made it clear that that was not the case, that it was simply a matter of programming.

Talking about programming, you just addressed the fact that there is the francophone side, with Radio-Canada, and the CBC. As regards the matching of the various galas broadcast, I think it would be sensible to plan how to manage the matter in future with regard to official languages. When people are invited to a gala of this kind, it is very important to promote them, regardless of the language they speak.

You threw the ball back into the court of the Hall of Fame Gala people, who are thinking about it for the moment. But what do you know to date about next year's gala?

[Hubert T. Lacroix]

I know absolutely nothing about it, Mr. Lebel. We allowed gala organizers to think about how they would like to organize the event next year. We are open to a proposal from them that will enable us to work with them again and to meet both their objectives and our own. For the moment, however, I have no idea of their intentions with regard to the 2008-2009 Hall of Fame Gala.

[Denis Lebel, Conservative, Roberval—Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

For how many years has the francophone part been removed from the Hall of Fame Gala, Mr. Lacroix?

[Hubert T. Lacroix]

I believe it's been three years.

[Denis Lebel, Conservative, Roberval—Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Considering that there weren't any financial aspects to that decision and that it was really a programming decision, I would like you to repeat to me what you think justified that choice of programming.

[Hubert T. Lacroix]

As Mr. Stursberg said before you, the objective was to prepare a program for an essentially anglophone audience. That's why the 44 minutes focused mainly on Oscar Peterson and Paul Anka, in view of the Mr. Peterson's death and Mr. Anka's induction. The 40 minutes therefore targeted the anglophone market. That was the mandate of that program. The organizers were moreover aware of that. It isn't as though we surprised them by putting that kind of program together.

[Denis Lebel, Conservative, Roberval—Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

You said a number of times that you were aware you could have done better. From what I heard, you don't know what next year's gala will consist of or whether it will be produced by your corporation.

If that's the case, considering that you want to do better, what would it be possible to do?

[Hubert T. Lacroix]

Mr. Lebel, I don't know what the format of next year's gala will be, and I don't even know whether it will be handed over to us. If the organizers want to submit another project to us, we'll be pleased to consider it. However, I take this opportunity to repeat that we are aware of the importance of reflecting the diversity of the performance at an event of this kind.

[Denis Lebel, Conservative, Roberval—Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you. I'll close by recalling that the Broadcasting Act states that Radio-Canada must contribute to shared national consciousness and identity. There is linguistic duality, in this case involving the two official languages. I congratulate you on the work that has been done and urge you to continue ensuring that the official languages have a greater impact across our country.

[Hubert T. Lacroix]

Thank you, Mr. Lebel.

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

Thank you, Mr. Lebel.

We'll now begin our second round with Mr. Pablo Rodriguez.

[Pablo Rodriguez, Liberal, Honoré-Mercier, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Good morning, Mr. Lacroix.

The Canadian Songwriters' Hall of Fame submitted a brief to the Standing Committee on Official Languages. I don't know whether you read it. I had the opportunity to read it yesterday and the day before. There seemed to be some contradictions between the Hall of Fame's position and that of CBC/Radio-Canada.

One gets the impression from the brief that, in the past three years, the Hall of Fame has emphasized the importance of reflecting linguistic duality, that is English and French, but, on every occasion, the idea was rejected by CBC/Radio-Canada. The brief states, on one page, that Martin Duchesne, who was a member of the Hall of Fame, resigned because he criticized it for having sold its soul to the devil. The devil in question is apparently CBC/Radio-Canada.

What do you say about that?

[Hubert T. Lacroix]

With all due respect, Mr. Rodriguez, I don't think we're the devil. That sentence could mean that it had sold its soul to its board of directors, which chose to conduct a transaction that doesn't seem to suit Mr. Duchesne. Since neither you nor I were in the room, I wouldn't want to lend Mr. Duchesne any diabolical intentions or anything else of that kind related to hell.

Having said that, I also read the brief dated May 9, 2008, which is here before me. It reflects the conversations between CBC/Radio-Canada and the gala's organizers. The message that we've tried to send gala organizers over the years was that television wasn't the best medium for this kind of event. The concept of a gala that lasts three and quarter hours is very static. We suggested—and I believe we were right in doing so—broadcasting the gala on Radio Two and a summary on Radio One. That's also reflected in the brief that you read.

[Pablo Rodriguez, Liberal, Honoré-Mercier, QC]

You can obviously see a lot of things in that, but what I retain, because it interested me a great deal, is that the Canadian Songwriters' Hall of Fame would really have wanted to go further and present francophone artists. As we didn't hear from the people from the Canadian Songwriters' Hall of Fame, we didn't get their point of view.

I think that's feasible. I spoke with the ADISQ people—because I was in the room—who explained to me that, when ADISQ broadcast its show, even though it was essentially francophone, artists like Simple Plan were able to speak in English and that was possible in that context.

Another contradiction emerges from a reading of the brief. CBC/Radio-Canada seems to say that the francophone artists were warned that they would be edited out. However, people like Mr. Dubois seemed to contradict that.

Do francophone artists know they'll be edited out when they agree to appear?

[Hubert T. Lacroix]

Those are important details that I unfortunately don't know because that takes place on the spot, between the people who organize the gala and the people who perform that evening.

[Pablo Rodriguez, Liberal, Honoré-Mercier, QC]

As a Quebecker who believes in Canada, I unfortunately get the impression that this situation and others help maintain the two solitudes. Anglophones have their things and francophones have theirs. We expect a little more from our national broadcaster. That's perhaps what disappointed many people on the committee, those who believe in Canada and who would like to do more for Canada and linguistic duality. People say “francophone” and they think “Quebec”, but it must also be understood that there are roughly one million francophones outside Quebec. Those people too would have liked to see the performances of francophone artists at the gala.

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

Thank you.

Would you like to make a comment?

[Hubert T. Lacroix]

I'll read it quickly.

You're right, Mr. Rodriguez. CBC/Radio-Canada's mandate is really to build bridges. You've heard that expression from me a number of times in all kinds of forums. In the information he gave you, Mr. Stursberg talked about 200 hours of programming. A lot of our projects have been developed to reflect the two cultures, and we aren't at all embarrassed by the work we do. On the contrary, we feel our contribution is very good. But people only take into account that evening, about which we've already admitted that we could have done a better job of reflecting the diversity of performances, and they say that we aren't carrying out our mandate. That's where I differ. You have to consider what we do as a whole.

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

Thank you, Mr. Lacroix.

Thank you, Mr. Rodriguez.

We'll now go over to the government side and Mr. Daniel Petit.

[Daniel Petit, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Good morning, Mr. Lacroix.

When your vice-president came here, the questions were specific. They concerned what's called the Hall of Fame Gala and the fact that a group of francophone artists were excluded from its televised version. I'm summing it up in a few words.

What led us to ask a question is that Mr. Stursberg suggested that he was very familiar with the viewing habits of Toronto anglophones. He thought that, if the program contained French, anglophones would change channels. That made startled us a little. It was a bit painful to hear that answer.

I would like to address something more specific for the future with you. It may not just be the future of the Hall of Fame that is concerned. It may be all programs of that kind that can be programmed by your network. I'm going to repeat to you something that everyone knows. In Quebec, galas are what oil is to Alberta. We export our galas, our festivals and our artists around the world. Business is business. When I see that you don't promote Quebec artists in Toronto, that shocks me. That's business for us. That's the recognition of what we are and what we can offer the other provinces.

I don't know whether you were here at that time, and have no fear, I'm not suggesting you had any intention. I understand that Radio-Canada and the CBC are the same company. You are the president of both networks. When you give an order, you give the order to both entities, not to one, then the other. When you agreed to work on the Hall of Fame, did you know—and this question also comes from my colleague, that it wasn't a business decision, but a programming decision? Did you know at the time that francophones wouldn't be part of the televised show? I'm not talking about Radio One and Radio Two. Did you know that, or did it come as a surprise, like when we read it in the newspapers the next morning? I don't have that answer. Did you know in advance that there wouldn't be any francophones on television and that their performances would be edited out that time?

[Hubert T. Lacroix]

Since the format of that program has been the same for three years, the only answer I can give you is yes.

[Daniel Petit, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

So you did know that the francophones would not be in the televised show. I am naturally not suggesting you had any bad intentions, don't fear that. I'm especially trying to clarify a situation. Were there any submissions by your corporation? You have a mandate to carry out. Did you say you were rejecting the project because you had a duty to build a bridge between the two cultures or another type of duty? That's part of your mandate. It isn't the Hall of Fame that's important: the Hall of Fame isn't Canada. It's you who represent us, in the duality. Did you tell the Hall of Fame that we couldn't accept that project, that it didn't make any sense? You knew that the francophones would be excluded from it.

[Hubert T. Lacroix]

Mr. Petit, if that were the case and no francophones were presented on CBC's airwaves in any program whatever, I would agree with you and I would understand why you were angry. However, that's not at all the case.

To go back to the Hall of Fame, Mr. Stursberg told you—once again, I would be pleased to give you all the information—the number of occasions and programs between 2006 and 2008 when the CBC presented French Canadian artists on the screen, on CBC television. That said, the format of that program is determined by independent programmers with whom we work and who edit the 44 minutes for us. The format was discussed and accepted with the organizers. No one was surprised with the way those 44 minutes were developed. However, I repeat once again, we recognize—and I do first of all—that we could have done a better job of reflecting the diversity of the performances that evening.

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

Thank you very much.

Thank you, Mr. Petit.

[Daniel Petit, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Lacroix.