Official Languages Committee on Nov. 27th, 2007

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Let us go back to Mr. Harvey's question about the 38 recommendations. I will read you recommendation 39, because there were 39 recommendations in the report. It is very important; this is what it says:

That the Government of Canada adopt a broad approach in its renewal of the Action Plan for Official Languages, including in particular: · active involvement of the communities, provinces, territories and federal government in developing, implementing and evaluating the action plan; · flexibility in identifying the key sectors targeted, for which the amount of funding can vary with the priorities set out by the communities.

That is perhaps one recommendation that you can take a closer look at, and include in one of your own recommendations.

[Graham Fraser]

I take note of it and I would like to thank the honourable member for having reminded me of the 39^th recommendation, which is consistent with the position that we put forward in your report and with what we hope to be able to bring before the courts when they deal with the scope of part VII.

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

You have two and a half minutes remaining.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Could you please tell us what you think about the Court Challenges Program? Mr. Chong often says that the program had more to do with legal aid. However, there is a difference between legal aid and the Court Challenges Program. That is a well-known fact. Mr. Baird, the minister at the time, said that the government would not give Canadians money to fight the government and its legislation.

Does that not mean that the government's position is that there are laws, but that it will not give communities... The danger is that ordinary citizens would never be able to afford taking a case to the Supreme Court. But, when the Court Challenges Program was in place, Ms. Paulin from Tracadie-Sheila, to mention just one example, was able to win a case involving the RCMP in New Brunswick. The federal government may say that in the end it was the province that provided the settlement, but it was thanks to the Court Challenges Program that the case was made public. The danger with cancelling the Court Challenges Program is that official language minority communities have lost one of the tools they had for defending their rights under the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms.

[Graham Fraser]

As Ms. Tremblay pointed out, there is a difference between legal aid and the Court Challenges Program, and that has to do with the importance of the rights Canadians have under the charter.

I think that by definition, a right defined in the charter is not just an individual right of the person who brings the case forward. There is also a national and collective implication when a right is redefined, when the scope of a right is defined by the Supreme Court and when this court defines the meaning of the charter. This is not necessarily so for a civil case or for a request for protection that an individual takes to court. That is an important distinction.

Let us look at some of the cases that went to the Supreme Court as a result of the Court Challenges Program. I am thinking of cases such as Arsenault-Cameron and Mahé. These are very specific examples where the right of citizens to education and the right of communities to control their schools were established by the court. There are French-language school boards throughout the country as a result of a Supreme Court decision, and this decision was handed down because of the Court Challenges Program.

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

Thank you very much, Commissioner.

We have now completed the third round.

We will begin the fourth round with Ms. Maria Minna from the Liberal Party.

[Maria Minna, Liberal, Beaches—East York, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

You had a forum in Toronto that looked at the connection between duality and diversity. I would like to hear your impressions of the forum. It was most interesting, because children in my riding speak the language of their parents, of course, but they are often very interested in learning French, because they do not feel they are citizens of the country unless they know the two languages. I would like, first of all, to hear your impressions of the forum.

Deuxièmement, I find that there are immigrants in Toronto who come from French-speaking countries, like Congo. The families in my constituency are telling me that they're having difficulty accessing good French schools for their children. One family has actually taken their children out of the French school in Toronto because they found the level of French of the teacher in the class was not to the level they expected, or good.

This is something that would be unfortunate, because with a lot of the immigrants coming who already speak French, it's something we would want to encourage, to maintain and to strengthen, rather than....

I wondered if that was something you had looked at or have any information on from that aspect.

Those are the two things.

[Graham Fraser]

Mr. Chairman, it was a fascinating day that we spent in Toronto, and we had representatives from a wide variety of ethnocultural groups, English-speaking and French-speaking. It enabled us to have a better sense of their concerns.

We were also struck, and it confirms the comment the member made, by the degree of interest and support there is for the principle of linguistic duality in Canada. The statistics show, in fact, that there is a higher level of official language bilingualism among people who come from other countries than there is among Canadians who've been here for several generations. I think this shows the degree to which one of the things that attracts immigrants to this country is the concept of linguistic duality. This is not a barrier; this is part--I hate to use the word branding--of the way people identify us as a country in the world.

In terms of the challenge for French language schools in Ontario and in other provinces, there is a study that was done on French language schools in Toronto that showed some really interesting social tensions between franco-Ontarians, who had certain expectations, both linguistic and educational, from the schools--the children of Quebeckers who had moved to Ontario--and often African immigrants who had come from a more rigorous French colonial education tradition.

[Maria Minna, Liberal, Beaches—East York, ON]

Mr. Fraser, I apologize. I think my colleague would like to throw in another question, and then maybe you can piggyback on that one.

[Graham Fraser]

It is a phenomenon that we're aware of and that I find a particular challenge for minority communities, to welcome French-speaking immigrants to the school system and the other elements of the community.

[Pablo Rodriguez, Liberal, Honoré-Mercier, QC]

I regularly meet with representatives from the communities and anglophone groups in Quebec. There is an urgent problem. I received a very specific, detailed note over the weekend from the director general of the Townshippers' Association. She told me that the association is experiencing a budget crisis at the moment. There is no longer any money in the account, and the amounts required for people's wages have to be deposited this week. They're not getting any money from the Department of Canadian Heritage. I have heard that a number of anglophone groups in Quebec are in a similar position. Apparently, this week the representatives from the department told them that they would be issuing an emergency cheque, but that this might not happen, because the department can issue only six emergency cheques, and that this must be done for a number of groups.

The departmental officials suggested changing the rules and issuing more emergency cheques. The money that has been promised should simply be provided rather than cutting off the funding to anglophone organizations in Quebec!

I was wondering whether you were aware of this situation and whether the Office of the Commissioner of Official Languages could do anything about it.

[Graham Fraser]

I was not aware of the specific cases you described. The systemic problem, which I described in response to other questions, occurs again and again. I heard similar testimonies regarding Quebec institutions, as well as institutions in other parts of the country. I've taken good note of the problem. Clearly, there is a systemic problem.

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

Thank you very much, Mr. Fraser.

I now give the floor to Daniel Petit.

[Daniel Petit, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Thank you very much. Good morning, Mr. Fraser. I am pleased to see you again.

I would like you to speak to a potentially sensitive issue. There is one thing I would like to know, given that you have tabled a report. I am relatively new to this committee. I have been a member for longer than Mr. Gravel, but no longer than a year, at most.

When I first came to the Standing Committee on Official Languages, the first thing I learned from Mr. Godin—who is, for all intents and purposes, an official languages institution—was that the committee had never before travelled to meet francophone communities outside Quebec. This was the first time since 1969. All of us, including Mr. Godin, were quite surprised. Given that this was my first time, I wasn't as surprised as he was. He was completely taken aback, and he spoke about it on three or four occasions.

We visited all provinces and heard from their francophone communities in order to see how things were going on the ground. Naturally, we tabled a report, entitled Communities speak out: hear our voice. The vitality of official language minority communities. I can tell you that I learned a lot of things, and in little time! I was with Mr. D'Amours when we visited a centre in New Brunswick where Quebec physicians go to work because it is more financially advantageous to them. They speak French with the nurses who are trained there. It is a very nice centre. It all appears to have been developed over the past four or five years. That is a good example of vitality.

I also visited Newfoundland. That province has a very small group of francophones, some 3,800, but it is quite powerful. It is an extremely wealthy and well-structured community. I am not referring to the fishers of Port aux Basques, I am talking about those I was able to meet.

From the start, let me say that I have not read your report from beginning to end. You have two reports, the 2005 annual report on official languages and, specially, the report I've taken good note of, the second volume.

[Graham Fraser]

That is the Canadian Heritage Report.

[Daniel Petit, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

The Canadian Heritage Report addresses the official language outcomes of designated federal institutions. It refers to the often-quoted sections 41 and 42. I am wondering whether that was only to please me. When I consider a number of areas, progress has effectively been made. Not only has money been given, but on top of that, the money has been put to more productive use. I get the sense that there are good things in the report.

You have already addressed the issue. I will attempt to repeat what you said word for word, without getting out of context. In your latest annual report, you recommended, and I quote:

The Commissioner recommends that the Minister for Official Languages ensure Canadian Heritage review its accountability mechanisms for the implementation of sections 41 and 42 of the Act in order to place more emphasis on results.

There seem to be results, but when I read that, I am a bit perplexed. I would like you to explain what the shortcomings are. What is the problem? Is it only a document that public servants have been producing for the past 30 years? Practically speaking, is there something in there? You have detected something, and I would like to know what.

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

You have a good minute, or even a minute and a half left.

[Daniel Petit, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

I would like to have left you longer.

[Graham Fraser]

One of the recommendations that I made regarding Canadian Heritage was that the accountability system should be reviewed. I made that recommendation partly because of the changes to the governance system. Responsibility for coordination and oversight used to fall under the purview of the Privy Council, but was transferred to Canadian Heritage. They are two separate functions: one is to implement programs, and the other is to ensure oversight.

We believe that it is difficult for the same department to adequately carry out both roles. We therefore asked Professor Donald Savoie to carry out a study on the governance of official languages in Canadian Heritage and provide us with an overview of the consequences of transferring the responsibilities from the Privy Council to Canadian Heritage. It is our means of following up on our concerns on this matter.

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Nadeau.

[Richard Nadeau, Bloc, Gatineau, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Fraser, I would like to discuss the issue of promoting Canadian French around the world. TV5 is the third largest TV network in the world. However, Canada and Quebec note that TV5 is not well-represented in the program schedule, even though the network is important for us.

It is perhaps, therefore, no surprise to learn that 85% of TV5 programs are funded by France. It is important to note that TV5 is broadcast in 203 different countries, that is almost every country in the world.

What is your position with regard to TV5 and the need to involve the Canadian francophone community in promoting Quebec and Canada around the world?

[Graham Fraser]

I believe that Canadian involvement is very important. Furthermore, I heard recently that the French government support of TV5 was less than certain. If I'm not mistaken, the Canadian and Quebec governments acted together to try to convince France to continue supporting TV5.

I always feel at home when I watch Canadian programs broadcast on TV5 when I'm abroad. Both as a Canadian viewer and as somebody who has travelled around abroad, I understand the importance of TV5 and its role as a platform for Canada and Quebec.

[Richard Nadeau, Bloc, Gatineau, QC]

Earlier today, and during the course of some of our other meetings, we have discussed an issue that you address in your book Sorry, I Don't Speak French, that is to say, making the knowledge of French a criterion for university admission.

I have spent longer out of Quebec than I have spent living in Quebec, and I have noticed that, since the mid-90s, English-language-dominated school boards have become inclined to stop offering French as a second language at secondary schools. I'm not talking about schools that provide an official immersion program, or core French as it is often referred to in education circles.

Does the fact that these courses are no longer being offered not set alarm bells ringing? It is important that French be recognized by all Canadians, and not just parents who want their children to learn French.

[Graham Fraser]

I agree wholeheartedly with what was said about the importance to be given to the teaching of basic French, or, as it is known in English, core French.

We must not forget that 1.1 million students in English Canada are learning French, and only 300,000 of them are in French immersion programs. Most of these students are taking core French. It is a widespread phenomenon. And I find it extremely annoying when people question the value of teaching core French.

However, I would like to give you an example of something positive. My friends must be getting tired of listening to me talk about this. I am referring to the Edmonton Public School Board, which conducted a study of what was happening there in 2000-2001. Enrolment levels for the French program had dropped by 12%. A report set out 14 criteria that were required in order to provide high quality French education. A sizable budget was made available for the implementation of these 14 criteria. The result was a 25% increase in enrolment, and the type of drop that we normally see in grades 9 and 10 has almost been eliminated.

As a result, 63% of the students who are receiving post-secondary education in French at the Saint-Jean campus of the University of Alberta come out of immersion programs. In my opinion, this means that the experiment was a success. It gives me a reason to be somewhat optimistic. And it provides other school boards with an example that they may wish to follow.

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

Thank you for that anecdote, Mr. Fraser.

We will now hear Mr. Godin.