Official Languages Committee on March 24th, 2009

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

Okay.

[James Moore, Conservative, Port Moody—Westwood—Port Coquitlam, BC]

We have these investments and we want to make sure the programs are established.

I have to say that this is an example where the government can set up programs and the government can make investments, but I think what's most important--and this is where the role of the politicians comes in--is to tell the story about the importance of Canada's official languages and to encourage people in this country to enrol their kids in education.

I've told this story a few times, and I have to bite my lip sometimes when I tell it, but I have to say that my dad agreed with Pierre Trudeau on a couple of things. One of them was--and I still hold this view--that the government doesn't have any business getting involved in the personal lives of people, to the extent most possible. That's number one. Number two was the idea that Canadians becoming bilingual was good for the country and good for the individual, so he enrolled us.

Having leadership and encouraging people to learn both of Canada's official languages is good for Canada. I want to do this as best I can, and you can do that, and we can all do that in our own way. When I was studying political science as an undergraduate and graduate student at the University of Northern British Columbia, a new university established in 1992, you could learn German and Spanish, but there were no French courses.

As a person studying political science in British Columbia at a university that is well thought of and gets good scores in the Maclean's surveys and so on, as a person studying political science but not being able to study it and listen to the speeches of René Lévesque, of Bouchard, and of Chrétien in 1995 in their own language, it meant not being able to listen to those debates, not being able to understand the passion, and not being able to understand the people in French as they were discussing the future of this country, the future of Quebec, the history of this country, and what that meant to people in regard to their sense of identity. In not being able to do that, you lose a sense of what this debate has always been about in this country.

So we want to make those kinds of investments, but we want to encourage families and kids to get involved and to learn both official languages.

On the provincial side, to go to your next question, of course we have agreements on K-to-12 education. The reality in New Brunswick is that New Brunswick has their own education formula. They announced it in September of last year, I think, so they have their own reality. Obviously the Province of Quebec has its own reality. Different provinces have their own focuses. So when we do these agreements, we obviously do them with an open mind, respecting provincial jurisdiction and respecting the fact that provinces are tackling their own budgetary and demographic concerns. But we want to sign agreements that have this view to the future of having as many kids as possible speaking both of Canada's official languages.

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

Thank you, Mr. Chong.

Thank you, Minister. Your comments will certainly be useful for our study on post-secondary education.

We will now conclude the second round of our meeting with our minister by giving the floor to Mr. Godin.

You can continue where you left off earlier.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Moore, I liked how you explained to Mr. Chong how it was important for you to be able to listen to Mr. René Lévesque speaking in his own language and to be able to understand the passion that drove him. You will agree with me that this is what you said.

Do you prefer to listen to me directly and understand my language or do you prefer to go through translation? Is it better to listen to me directly? Yes? So, at the Supreme Court, would it not be important that the lawyer who is arguing his case before the judge be able to present it to someone who understands him, who sees his passion and understands how he is presenting his case? Pleading before the Supreme Court is an art! So, Mr....

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh!

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

As far as I'm concerned, I have never been able to speak and listen at the same time, Mr. Minister.

[James Moore, Conservative, Port Moody—Westwood—Port Coquitlam, BC]

I can walk and chew gum at the same time as well.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

You are a special case. You have learned French as well. You are aware that the laws of our country are written—and it is we, in Parliament, who write our laws—in French and in English. They are not translated. Yesterday, when I introduced my Bill C-232, I went to see the interpreter to hand her my speech. She was able to read it ahead of time or as I was introducing it. She thanked me a great deal because I am perhaps an individual that the interpreters, with all due respect that I have for them, sometimes find difficult to follow, given the speed at which I speak and my desire to do everything well.

The Supreme Court of Canada is the final court in the land. The federal judges, in the provinces, for instance, are bilingual. They are able to speak both official languages. There may be—I don't know the exact number—50, 100 federal court judges. When an individual appears before this court, he or she is entitled to a trial in one of the official languages, and the judges speak this language. It's different with the Supreme Court. There are only nine justices.

With respect to their skills, whether they be legal or otherwise, would you not agree with me that understanding the person speaking should be a very important aspect? I do not want to have a judge who is bilingual but does not understand the law. We are not talking about that. We do not want to go down that path. We want the person to be competent A to Z. Would you agree with me?

[James Moore, Conservative, Port Moody—Westwood—Port Coquitlam, BC]

Justices are appointed based on merit and excellence in legal matters. If you think that someone must be absolutely perfectly bilingual in his or her written and verbal skills in order to sit on the Supreme Court of Canada and be a justice in this country, well I hope that you are going to talk the talk and walk the walk, as we say in English...

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

And I will not be chewing gum, that I can guarantee.

[James Moore, Conservative, Port Moody—Westwood—Port Coquitlam, BC]

... and you will write a letter to each of the Supreme Court justices requesting that they resign if they cannot speak French.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Mr. Chair, it's important—

[James Moore, Conservative, Port Moody—Westwood—Port Coquitlam, BC]

I hope that you will, because this would allow an answer to your question.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Mr. Chair, I would like to raise a question. Is the court not there for individual citizens? Is it not the individual citizens who are important? Is it not the place where one can be heard with passion, as you said earlier? You said it yourself. It's better to hear from the individuals themselves, in their language, as they speak with passion and so forth. Now, you are telling me to write a letter to the Supreme Court justices. I am not the one appointing the Supreme Court justices.

Do you agree with me that it is preferable to hear individuals directly rather than through the interpretation? The court's decision hinges on that. Why not have, at the Supreme Court, justices who will respect—and I'm talking about the appointment process—both official languages of our country?

[James Moore, Conservative, Port Moody—Westwood—Port Coquitlam, BC]

It is important, but it should not be the only criteria.

Let's be clear. It is clear that Mr. Godin wants Ms. McLachlin to step down.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

No, this concerns appointments. My bill is not retroactive. I am not talking about replacing justices who are already sitting. However, in the future, Mr. Minister, if you believe in what you said, that it was important to hear René Lévesque in his language and to understand his passion, do you not think that it's important for a justice to listen to arguments before the Supreme Court in the language of the accused? It is the highest court in our country. There is no other possible appeal.

[James Moore, Conservative, Port Moody—Westwood—Port Coquitlam, BC]

You have expressed your reasons. I have mine. You have your standards; I have mine.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Could you review anything in your reasons?

[James Moore, Conservative, Port Moody—Westwood—Port Coquitlam, BC]

It's clear that Yvon Godin wants Bev McLachlin to step down from the Supreme Court. I do not agree.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

That is not what my bill states. Mr. Chair, it's clear. My bill is clear: it concerns future appointments. By making such statements, the minister is mistaken. He is wrong and this is not acceptable.

[James Moore, Conservative, Port Moody—Westwood—Port Coquitlam, BC]

There will be a vote in the House on your bill, and once again you will be defeated.

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

Thank you very much. This completes our meeting with you, minister.

We will take a recess for several minutes before welcoming our next witnesses.

[James Moore, Conservative, Port Moody—Westwood—Port Coquitlam, BC]

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

Thank you very much for coming.

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

The committee meeting will now resume. I would invite the committee members to return to their seats, if they want to have time to question our witnesses. We are hearing from two other witnesses during this meeting. In fact, we have three witnesses; that's even better.

On behalf of the committee members I would like to welcome Mr. Tom Scrimger, Assistant Deputy Minister, Planning and Corporate Affairs. He is also a committee regular. Furthermore, Mr. Hubert Lussier, Director General, Official Languages Support Program, remains with us for the second hour. Finally we also have Mr. Jérôme Moisan, Senior Director, Official Languages Secretariat.

Gentlemen, welcome.

You haven't really prepared a speech, because we are continuing the study we began earlier on departmental priorities and the Roadmap on Linguistic Duality in Canada.

We will begin our third round.

Mr. Rodriguez.