Official Languages Committee on April 2nd, 2009

[Pablo Rodriguez, Liberal, Honoré-Mercier, QC]

Is it possible that this problem is linked to a rural exodus—the fact that people are leaving their regions to pursue their studies and do not want to go back there afterwards to practice their profession, particularly if they are doctors or nurses?

[Dr. Pierre Chartrand]

It would be very difficult for me to give you an answer based on evidence. We are conducting these studies precisely to obtain answers to those questions and determine the root causes of this problem.

[Pablo Rodriguez, Liberal, Honoré-Mercier, QC]

As regards the Anglophone community in Quebec, a lady I spoke with was telling me that the population is aging and that seniors, who frequently require health care, are often afraid they will not be able to receive services in English in Quebec.

Have you noticed that?

[Dr. Pierre Chartrand]

Last week, a research symposium was held at McGill University dealing specifically with that kind of question. There was discussion of minority Anglophone populations in the hospital environment.

[Pablo Rodriguez, Liberal, Honoré-Mercier, QC]

And what came out of it?

[Dr. Pierre Chartrand]

I am going to ask Ms. Lapointe to answer that question.

[Johanne Lapointe, Team Lead, Institute Affairs, Canadian Institutes of Health Research]

It was a symposium with representatives of the Anglophone communities in Quebec. We also invited researchers to attend. The purpose of the meeting was to see how to establish partnerships where researchers could develop research programs based on problems identified by the minority linguistic communities in Quebec—in this case, the Anglophone communities. People presented statistics relating to that population in Quebec. At the present time, the Canada Institutes for Health Research are trying to establish closer ties between the researchers and the communities that have identified specific needs, in order to see how they can work together. We believe that the results of that research will help to inform our work in terms of program development, services and access.

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

Thank you, Mr. Rodriguez.

Mr. Nadeau.

[Richard Nadeau, Bloc, Gatineau, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Good morning to you all.

Mr. Chairman, I am a little taken aback. The purpose of our study is to look at how universities can train bilingual graduates so that the federal public service can respond to citizens in their mother tongue. I have nothing against the people who are appearing today. They are doing excellent work in their respective areas. However, perhaps we should be hearing from witnesses who are able to address the specific goals of our study. It seems to me we have strayed well beyond the topic on the agenda. We may have to take another look at our study schedule.

I would like to address my question to Mr. Gaffield, from the Social Sciences and Humanities Research Council of Canada.

I would like to know whether, in your fields of study or the programs you have looked at, you have found any data indicating at what point a student should learn a second language in order to be fully bilingual by the time he or she graduates. Should the learning process begin at the primary, secondary or university levels? What should we be focusing on so that more graduates are able to read, write and speak both languages?

[Dr. Chad Gaffield]

Thank you very much.

Your question touches on a problem that communities across Canada are facing, and that I myself have experienced personally. For example, in our family, we discussed this in relation to our children, as to which immersion programs should be selected and what level of training was required in order for our children to become bilingual. It is an interesting subject.

Recently, we funded a project that I mentioned earlier, which relates directly to that question. I am talking about CURAs, the Community-University Research Alliances, which bring together school board experts and university researchers. The following gives you a brief description of this initiative, which directly addresses that problem:

For the first time in the history of Francophones in Western Canada, a team that includes highly qualified researchers and community representatives will look at the challenges facing minority Francophone communities that have been feeling the effects of assimilation for more than a century.

That directly relates to education in the minority communities.

[Richard Nadeau, Bloc, Gatineau, QC]

Yes, Mr. Gaffield, but the idea is that the federal government will be able to recruit public servants who can work at an appropriate level in French and English. Perhaps the study still needs some work. You talk about FL1—French as a first language—which is being lost through assimilation. We know that it is a real cancer from a sociological and ethnolinguistic standpoint.

I wanted to know whether you are aware of any studies that give a formal indication that university is not the place to start learning a second language, and that the learning process has to begin in primary or secondary school.

[Dr. Chad Gaffield]

Yes, we do have a number of studies. I will prepare a list of them for you, and perhaps provide some examples and results.

We may want to take advantage of the presence here this morning of Mr. Richard Clément, who is one of the experts on this in Canada.

[Richard Nadeau, Bloc, Gatineau, QC]

By all means; Mr. Clément, perhaps you could respond.

[Richard Clément]

Thank you.

Of course, this is not a recent issue. It is something that we have been looking at through research on bilingualism for many years now. In terms of the best time to begin, I would say, the earlier the better, for all kinds of reasons: first of all, because a child has a more flexible brain, and also, for reasons that relate to the types of educational methods that can be used with children, methods that are not effective with adults. That does not mean that an adult cannot learn another language later on. That is absolutely possible, but there are pedagogical questions that come into play at that point. They cannot be taught a language the same way others are.

To summarize—and this was a trend and major Canadian find that has been exported outside of Canada, all across Europe—it is about immersion beginning as early as possible.

I would just like to add, in another context…

[Richard Nadeau, Bloc, Gatineau, QC]

Mr. Clément, I only have five minutes.

Do you think it would be better for the federal government to hire people who are already bilingual right from the start, rather than training unilingual employees to become bilingual, with a view to staffing positions in the federal public service?

[Richard Clément]

Based on our institutional experience at the University of Ottawa, I can certainly say that, as a department head, it is preferable to hire people who already have a certain level of proficiency in the second language, even if they may require additional training subsequently.

[Richard Nadeau, Bloc, Gatineau, QC]

Fine, thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

Thank you, Mr. Nadeau.

Mr. Godin, you have the floor.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I would like to thank all our witnesses for being here today.

To be perfectly frank, I was having a bit of trouble, and that is why I left earlier. We are here to look at post-secondary education and how young people can be taught the two official languages. We are talking about programs here, but it seems to me that it is almost a topic in itself. Don't worry, though, we are not trying to be mean; we support you, because there is a need for a lot more money.

Mr. Clément, could you not pick up the phone and call our premier in New Brunswick who brought a lot of young Anglophones together and put them into an immersion program in Grade 5? Do you remember that?

[Richard Clément]

Yes, I do; there was a lot of reaction.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

I think he missed the boat. Then he went from a big boat to a small boat, because he ended up going back to Grade 3. I am sure they told you that you are the expert and that adults can learn, but that it was better… Do you not think New Brunswick should have stayed the way it was? Particularly since it was supposedly the only bilingual province in the country, except when it comes to health care! We are bilingual for everything else, but we have to fight tooth and nail in our province when it comes to health care. I wanted to make that point, just in case Mr. Shawn Graham reads the “blues”.

[Richard Clément]

The research community reacted strongly, and particularly my colleague, Rodrigue Landry, from the Canadian Institute for Research on Linguistic Minorities. We all agreed. At the time, I also got in touch with him, with a view to bolster our argument. Unfortunately, researchers do not always have the desired political impact.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

No, but we did go from Grade 5 to Grade 3, right?

[Richard Clément]

Yes.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

That is a step in the right direction for young people, in terms of immersion.