Official Languages Committee on April 30th, 2009

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

Thank you, Ms. Glover.

I have a question on the same subject. How long does the test take?

[Janice Best]

The TCF? There are two parts. One is mandatory and concerns oral comprehension, mastery of language structure and written comprehension. That takes an hour and a half.

Then there are two optional parts concerning oral and written expression. That lasts another two hours, I believe.

It's quite long, but the test is really rigorous. It's kept secret; we can't see it before we get it. We open the envelope and we discover it.

We've been very satisfied because we think the questions are quite consistent with the grammar we teach, but we've also been very impressed by the rigour of the test. It's not easy. The last questions are really complicated.

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

Committee members have asked a lot of questions about bilingualism and the level of second-language proficiency.

Mr. D'Amours, VANOC said it had received 14,000 applications from people who said they were bilingual. But what does it mean to be bilingual?

Mr. D'Amours.

[Jean-Claude D'Amours, Liberal, Madawaska—Restigouche, NB]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Given the time it takes, perhaps we could take the test ourselves. That's about the amount of time the committee has.

[Shelly Glover, Conservative, Saint Boniface, MB]

There should be an English test, a bilingual test.

[Jean-Claude D'Amours, Liberal, Madawaska—Restigouche, NB]

There is a desire at Simon Fraser University to get involved in cooperation and courses. There seems to be an incredible desire to offer training in French. I'm not saying that's not the case of the other universities represented here.

As regards cooperation, it was said that student stays in francophone environments should be funded in part by the federal government, regardless of the parents' financial means. That's an interesting suggestion.

Even if the political parties don't have the same vision of early childhood development—I don't want to have a debate on that this morning—the fact remains that the government can promote the development of children from zero to five years and invest in the future.

Providing financial assistance to students who want to stay in other francophone regions represents an investment in the future. I'm not talking about stays in other countries because, as you'll understand, I'm limiting myself to Canada. If a student wanted to go and stay in Edmundston, in my region, where the campus of the Université de Moncton is located, could he receive financial assistance?

Simon Fraser University has entered into agreements with other Quebec universities, but I haven't yet heard the same thing of the Université de Moncton, in New Brunswick. I hope that could be done at some point.

Would it be a major option for the federal government to provide financial assistance to students wishing to go and study elsewhere for a semester or a full year, regardless of their parents' financial means? Ultimately, as someone said, we might have a chance to keep them here when they come back.

[Claire Trépanier]

Think of the parents who've invested a lot of energy in choosing to put their children in a French immersion program.

At Simon Fraser University, the parents' mother tongue is not English. There we talk about multilingualism with two official languages. Think of those parents who don't speak a lot of English, who don't speak French at all, who speak an Asian language and so on. That's the case of the parents of students at our university. It requires a lot of energy on the part of the parents and children, who do their homework alone in the evenings. All those people are already spending a lot of energy.

You talk about investing, regardless of socio-economic levels. I think that's important to the extent that these people have already invested a great deal. Once they get to university, they've already shown that they want to pursue their studies. For example, students have to leave in third year—that's required of them. That demands extraordinary investment and commitment.

Regardless of socio-economic levels, we should invest. I agree with you: that money comes from the federal government. You want that money to stay in Canada. However, once they return to Canada, students who go and experience life in a francophone environment in another country will enrich Canada and the Canadian francophone community. I understand your hesitation, but I would like to encourage you to have that openness on the world, which would give us a return on our investment.

[Jean-Claude D'Amours, Liberal, Madawaska—Restigouche, NB]

I understand your point of view, but you also have to consider the principle of the matter.

Mr. Maher?

[Dan Maher]

I haven't checked recently, but when I took the program at Trois-Rivières in 1977, the scholarship was $2,000. When I checked two years ago, it was still $2,000.

[Jean-Claude D'Amours, Liberal, Madawaska—Restigouche, NB]

That's the amount provided by the federal government?

[Dan Maher]

That's it, yes.

[Jean-Claude D'Amours, Liberal, Madawaska—Restigouche, NB]

That means things have really changed.

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh!

[Dan Maher]

I think it's normal for the federal government to invest in Canada.

I understand my colleague's point of view, but we're trying to promote the French fact in Canada. As a result, let them go to France if they can afford to do it, or, why not, to Africa or Belgium, and let's propose language stays in Canada first; I think that's perfectly valid.

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

Ms. Arcand?

[Danielle Arcand]

I simply want to repeat the argument Mr. Ipperciel advanced earlier. One of our primary concerns, when we send our students to another institution, is to know whether they'll be welcomed in an appropriate, rich environment that will enable them to develop the skills we want them to acquire.

Support for research is very important to form centres of excellence in Canada. If we can do something great in political science, but there's a science program in French in Edmonton that's worth its weight in gold, and other centres of excellence are formed elsewhere, I think that's also what we have to aim for.

[Jean-Claude D'Amours, Liberal, Madawaska—Restigouche, NB]

I have a brief question. I'd like to go back to the obligation issue. In Vancouver, this is mandatory for students.

Do you think it should be an obligation across Canada, that, at some point during their studies, it should be mandatory for them to go and study in the other official language? In your universities—

[Dan Maher]

That would be on the condition we got the funding.

[Jean-Claude D'Amours, Liberal, Madawaska—Restigouche, NB]

With the funding, that would be fine. Perfect. Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

Thank you, Mr. D'Amours.

We'll continue with Ms. Guay.

[Monique Guay, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you for being here today.

Personally, I did the opposite when I was studying. I went to English immersion. I'm going to tell you a little story. I studied administration at McGill University. My professor was Vietnamese. I understood absolutely nothing in the first course. I wondered if it was my fault, if my English was that bad. I didn't understand any more in the second course. I spoke to an anglophone who was in my class. She told me the same thing, that she understood absolutely nothing. We asked to change professors because he wasn't proficient enough in the language to teach us.

I'd like to talk about the Explore program. We've talked a lot about it. I would like to have some more details on how it works in your universities. We've been told that it's a good five-week program. However, a lot of people don't take it because they have to work during the summer, or because they can't afford to do it. What could be done to improve the program? Shouldn't there be a scholarship for students to encourage them to use those five weeks to see whether they like being in immersion to learn a second language?

[Claire Trépanier]

There's already the Accent program at the federal level. It's a student monitoring program. The students we sent on mobility in third year to Laval University, for example, also benefited from the Accent program.

We could imagine a combination of those two programs in which the student, through the Explore program, studies his second language, but can also work in his mother tongue, perhaps on a part-time basis.

[Monique Guay, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

There have been government cuts to the programs you refer to. You know that. From what my colleague was saying, it's affecting part-time students.

[Claire Trépanier]

I'm citing that as an example—

[Monique Guay, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

Cuts have been made to that program. They've taken an axe to it—