Official Languages Committee on May 7th, 2009

[Lise Zarac, Liberal, LaSalle—Émard, QC]

However, if I understand correctly, you'd be prepared to sit down and negotiate.

[Bernadette Kassi]

We'd be entirely prepared to do that.

[Lise Zarac, Liberal, LaSalle—Émard, QC]

That's good.

You mentioned that you received the following amounts from the federal government: $9.2 million for the construction of a building—we're talking about infrastructure; $2 million for research; $450,000 from 2004 to 2006 for a technology roadmap; and $100,000 in 2009-2009 for archives. Is there any funding for specific programs?

[Bernadette Kassi]

All the funding we receive from the federal government is really earmarked for research. First it was for the building, and that was a one-time item. Once the building was built, we received no more money for that purpose. The only recurring funding is the $2 million that we receive through the National Research Council of Canada because it's a partner of CRTL. Otherwise, for the other items, those funds are related to research projects. The $100,000 from Canadian Heritage, for example, is funding that a CRTL member researcher was able to get for a research project on religious archives.

I have to say that little money is allocated to the development of language studies. In addition to program funding, we need funding. A good balance between teaching and research can help develop this bilingualism perspective and achieve the objective we're talking about here, which is to enable Canadian students to be bilingual at the end of their programs.

[Lise Zarac, Liberal, LaSalle—Émard, QC]

All right, thank you.

You also mentioned a lack of fairness between the University of Ottawa and the Université du Québec en Outaouais. Have you previously discussed this program and, if so, with whom? How could we be fairer with your university, in your opinion?

[Bernadette Kassi]

That's a really delicate issue. Since education is a provincial jurisdiction, it's very hard for the university to request more money from the federal government. The provincial rules are very clear. Since the UQO is a francophone institution, it's not easy to request funding to develop bilingual programs, in particular. In that sense, the situation of the Université du Québec en Outaouais is like that of a tightrope walker.

Since we were asked to give our views on what the federal government could do, we took the opportunity to outline the very uncomfortable situation in which we find ourselves at this time. In fact, I wouldn't say there is a lack of fairness. The University of Ottawa is entitled to do what it's doing. We're talking here about a provincial jurisdiction, and Ontario is doing what it should. The Province of Quebec is also doing what it should, under its rules.

The fact remains that the federal government is the one that could change the situation since it has more resources than the provinces and wants to develop bilingualism within Canadian society. I think funding could come from the federal government.

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

Thank you very much, Ms. Zarac. I want to take this opportunity to thank you as well for chairing the last committee meeting.

Ms. Guay.

[Monique Guay, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you very much for being here.

A Laval University official who appeared before this committee told us that, at that university, which is located in Quebec City, students often chose Chinese or Spanish as their second language rather than English—or French, depending on their mother tongue. Are you seeing this phenomenon at your universities?

[Normand Labrie]

French is the most popular language in continuing education at the University of Toronto. I didn't bring any statistics concerning the other languages. These are small groups. As I mentioned, more than 600 students take French courses every year. We also teach other languages, such as Mandarin.

[Bernadette Kassi]

I'm going to answer with a more personal story. I did my doctorate at Laval University, and I took some English courses as part of my studies. Given the completely francophone environment, it was very hard for me to apply what I had learned in class. That's a scenario that I'm putting out, and it may be false, but based on my experience, Canadian students prefer to learn Spanish or Chinese because that enables them to speak to foreign students. They want to discover other cultural horizons.

It's been clearly shown that language is one of the vectors of culture. They figure that, since English is one of Canada's official languages, they will have to learn it in one way or another. It's part of their identity; it's not something new. I think the desire to learn new things, to discover a new culture, encourages students to turn to other languages.

[Monique Guay, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

The public service is aging. So there are going to be a lot of changes in the next few years. A lot of new people will be hired in the public service. If those people aren't bilingual, it will be very difficult to offer services in both languages across the country.

I was wondering what you were suggesting should be done to help those students. Once they have entered the public service, they're given a certain time to learn the second language. That deadline can be postponed by four or five years and then be pushed back again.

Lastly, they never learn the second language and, consequently, services are not offered in both official languages. In some cases, more people have to be hired. Two people have to do the same job so that services are offered in both languages. There's a significant waste. What do you suggest to address that problem?

[Normand Labrie]

It was said earlier that 10,000 to 12,000 positions were going to be vacated. I think we have to publicize the situation and specify that it will be easier for bilingual candidates to get those positions and promotions once they are hired. I think university students will understand the message quite quickly. Speaking another language than French or English is very positive, as Mr. Rodriguez no doubt knows.

When you ready know two languages, such as Spanish and French, for example, it's easier to learn a third. It's easier to learn the third language than the second. At the University of Toronto, for example, 35% of students speak another language than French or English in the home. Learning French is not insurmountable for them, on the contrary. It's possible and relatively easy.

[Monique Guay, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

The younger they are, the easier it is.

[Bernadette Kassi]

My colleague just said that we would like to see students become aware of the fact that many positions will be available and that they'll have to be bilingual to occupy them. However, more official strategies must also be planned to assist those students or public servants already on the job in improving their second language. In particular, the federal government will have to be able to fund the universities offering programs or projects whose purpose is to develop second-language acquisition.

Could I ask a question?

[Monique Guay, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

These people are given two years to learn a second language, whether it be English or French, but that deadline should really be respected and not unduly extended to 10 or 15 years, for example. In those cases, nothing can be done because these people are occupying their positions and have vested rights. We're stuck with the problem.

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

Ms. Kassi, you may speak briefly. You may also ask your question.

[Bernadette Kassi]

The question that has come to my mind is this: why did the federal government wait until the average age reached 50 before looking for a way to provide for the succession? I think it should have thought about it from the outset. We know that people who work will be retiring at some point. Why has it waited so long?

It's as though a business had waited until its employees reached the age of 60 before it started thinking about hiring young people. It seems to me it should have asked itself that question and prepared for the succession a number of years ago, rather than wait to be faced with a fait accompli.

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

Thank you, Ms. Kassi. Your question is out there.

On that note, we're going to hand over to Mr. Petit.

[Daniel Petit, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Mr. Labrie, you are the Deputy Dean of the University of Toronto.

You told us about the francophones who go to study at your university, in particular, but there's a cost associated with that. I studied at Laval University. My tuition fees at the time were $500 a session. Now they are about $2,500. They're a whole lot higher at your university.

Laval University offers students accommodation for $272 a month, but it's more expensive at your university. My children studied in Alberta, and I can tell you that it's five times as expensive as in Quebec. They studied at the Faculté Saint-Jean, which was called the Collège Saint-Jean at the time and is now called the Campus Saint-Jean. For students from Quebec who want to go and study at an anglophone university, the fees are absolutely crazy. I have four children, and, having seen the bills coming in every month, I can tell you that those costs constitute a barrier.

Lastly, when a student applies for a scholarship from the Government of Quebec, it grants an amount based on Quebec rates, and not those of Ontario. The parent thus has to pay fees to enable the student to go and study at your university. You said that there were only 600 students, but there might be twice as many if your fees were the same as in Quebec, that is $2,500 a year. In those conditions, I think more students would be studying at your university. As a parent, I would say to you that cost is a substantial barrier.

[Normand Labrie]

The University of Toronto has approximately 70,000 students. We feel we have reached the ideal number of students. In the greater Toronto area, approximately 70,000 positions will have to be created at universities in the next few years. So we will necessarily have to establish new universities to meet that demand. However, the University of Toronto doesn't necessarily want to expand. We think it has reached its ideal size. Consequently, we are not seeking to increase the number of students.

As regards tuition fees, there's a distinction in Quebec between Quebec residents and people from outside Canada, for whom tuition fees are higher. At the University of Toronto, that distinction is made solely between Canadian and foreign students. So those who come from Quebec pay the same fees as those from Ontario.

We receive a lot of applications for admission. I mentioned that the university has 8,000 foreign students. In fact, attending the University of Toronto is really a bargain for foreign students. Tuition fees are four times higher at other universities where they could enroll, in the United States, for example.

We have to balance our tuition fees based on this entire context. Revenue from the provincial government has been stable in recent years, but has not increased. Even if we restrict fee increases as much as possible, we can only catch up with inflation through tuition fees.

[Daniel Petit, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Do I have any time left, Mr. Chairman?

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

You have about one minute left, Mr. Petit.

[Daniel Petit, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

My question is for Ms. Kassi.

Earlier you addressed a subject which fundamentally is perhaps a governance issue. The Université du Québec en Outaouais is a public university, not a private university such as the University of Toronto. It is guided by the Government of Quebec, which imposes certain standards, including French, as a basis. You said something that really offers hope. You drew a comparison with the University of Ottawa.

I would like you to tell us a little more in detail what you would like us to do. The status of the Université du Québec en Outaouais is different from that of the University of Ottawa. I'm not talking about the courses, but about governance. Quebec is very harsh in enforcing language laws, including at the university where you currently sit.

Could you give us more details on that subject?

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

Do it quite succinctly, Ms. Kassi.

[Bernadette Kassi]

If I correctly understood your question, I definitely see a distinction. First, these are two different provinces, and the Université du Québec en Outaouais is a constituent part of the Université du Québec. So there is a state factor, and we have to comply with provincial legislation, hence the discomfort I was describing a little earlier.

At the University of Ottawa, for example, even though there is a different system of governance, more private, the institution nevertheless receives provincial funding to assist it in developing programs for minorities, who are francophones.

At our university, we are in a border area with Ontario. That means that we could offer bilingual or multilingual programs to encourage bilingualism among our graduates, but we don't receive any provincial funding because we are a francophone university in a francophone province.

Given the fact that the rules are more “state-controlled” on the provincial side, if we could receive federal funding to assist us in this area, I think we could achieve our common objective, which is to develop bilingualism.