Official Languages Committee on May 26th, 2009

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

Yes.

[Pierre Lemieux, Conservative, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

You said that the teaching material for the basic courses was available in both languages. Can you give us a percentage?

There are a lot of basic courses at Borden and a few specialized courses. Can you say that, in 80% of cases, for example—

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

There is a two-page document, Mr. Lemieux.

[Jean-Rodrigue Paré]

I can't say whether that's the case for 80% of the courses. I know that material is there for the specialized courses, but I can't make the connection between the textbook and the course it's used for. That's why I can't give you an exact answer.

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

However, there is information in the document. So we'll take the opportunity to go back to Mr. Galipeau. Thank you for that course material capsule.

Mr. Galipeau.

[Royal Galipeau, Conservative, Ottawa—Orléans, ON]

It seems that the question I asked was a pregnant one.

Mr. Chairman, with your permission, I'd like to get some clarification from our researcher. When he mentioned tanks, did he mean army tanks or water tanks?

[Jean-Rodrigue Paré]

I meant army tanks.

[Royal Galipeau, Conservative, Ottawa—Orléans, ON]

All right.

Mr. Daigle, would you like to give me some clarification? I'm interested in this official languages champion concept because I've been an official languages champion for 40 years.

How does it work and for how has it been working? Are those people appointed by their superior officers or do they appoint themselves?

[Pierre Daigle]

It was noted in the files that people weren't made aware of their language rights and so on. These problems were addressed by means of a website to convey information and the appointment of an official languages champion.

[Royal Galipeau, Conservative, Ottawa—Orléans, ON]

Is the appointment made by superior officers? It's not an elected position, is it?

[Pierre Daigle]

From what I remember, at the time, the appointment was made by the superior officers, probably by one of the chiefs of military personnel at headquarters in Ottawa, since he is somewhat responsible for official languages. If I remember correctly, the director of official languages sort of reports to him. I believe that's how they designate a resource person who must promote all matters pertaining to official languages. He's called the official languages champion.

[Royal Galipeau, Conservative, Ottawa—Orléans, ON]

Is this typically someone who is in the human resources department?

[Pierre Daigle]

Mr. Chairman, I couldn't answer that question. I know that a major has been appointed official languages champion at Borden. I don't remember, from my reading, what his primary duties are or whether that's his main function. I couldn't say.

[Royal Galipeau, Conservative, Ottawa—Orléans, ON]

What I see is that, when someone stands as an official languages champion, even if he's interested in other matters, his colleagues perceive him as a one-trick pony, which makes his job increasingly difficult.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

Thank you very much for your remarks, Mr. Galipeau.

We'll continue with Mr. Nadeau.

[Richard Nadeau, Bloc, Gatineau, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Incidentally, the champion is identified in the document that was submitted to us. It's Mr. Jack Bouchard, who is a major. This is a program that is common in all the departments. Canadian Heritage handles this aspect of official languages. It isn't just in the armed forces.

What you're saying is that this person appears in the picture somewhat like Joan of Arc, to try to solve all the problems. He becomes a resource person, but that will never solve the problem of a lack of course material or a lack of courses within the Canadian armed forces.

When I was in Saskatchewan, during the debate on the heads of the 1997 election campaign, the leader of the Bloc Québécois pointed out that, in Bagotville, for example, the children of anglophone military members had access to English courses, but that, in Moose Jaw, it was impossible to get courses in French. That's since changed because the community has taken charge of the situation. That's always what comes to my mind when I think about the Canadian Forces: non-respect of the French fact.

Mr. Ombudsman, I hope that you'll be plunging into this matter. It's not just the officer, man or woman, but it's the entire family who suffers from the fact that the French fact is becoming non-existent in too many places. Children are assimilated because they don't even have the basics to maintain their knowledge of French. Consequently, instruction must be given in French. That has to be the case on the bases, or else in the public systems around the bases. We have to ensure that they can get access to those services. Where there are no services, we must create them; we must create the active offer. That's the very basis of what the Commissioner of Official Languages provides. We must ensure an active offer; that's an obligation provided for in the act.

We met with Mr. Fraser not long ago. I can't wait to meet with Mr. Semianiw and Mr. Meloche, who are responsible for the Canadian Forces' Official Languages Transformation Model.

I'd like to know whether I correctly understood. The colonels and generals who don't have a CBC-level knowledge of French will be losing their positions and will not be entitled to promotions as of December 2009. Are you aware of that?

[Pierre Daigle]

As I mentioned, I haven't had the opportunity to thoroughly examine the transformation model. I couldn't offer an opinion on that subject, unless we have the information here.

[Richard Nadeau, Bloc, Gatineau, QC]

In any case, that's what I've heard from a reliable source. If that's the case, so much the better. When Mr. O'Connor was Minister of Defence, Mr. D'Amours asked him some simple questions in French that he was not even able to answer in French. He was a senior official. The example has to come from above. Don't be embarrassed to say that the example must indeed come from above, from both colonels and generals. Otherwise, why ask soldiers to speak French and English, if the senior officers who give the orders aren't able to do it. I'm not arguing with you, but that's a fact, and I hope the ombudsman will take a kick at this hornets nest and make this major problem disappear.

Now, as we know, the chances of advancement for unilingual francophone military members are not as great as for unilingual anglophone members. Have you seen any evidence of this? Do you have the power to make recommendations to remedy the situation so that course material, in accordance with what I had unanimously passed here on the subject of a study... Imagine, the Minister of National Defence refused to provide the information. It took a unanimous vote from the committee to get the information. That's the documentation that Mr. Paré studied. Do you have that power?

I hope you'll recommend that everything should be fair and equal. Do you agree on that? How can you present that recommendation to enable all recruits to have an equal opportunity for promotion within the Canadian Forces?

[Pierre Daigle]

That's one of the major principles we're advancing. In the investigation we conducted, we touched a little on the issue of advancement. If individuals don't have access to instruction in their mother tongue and have to wait until a course is scheduled or there are enough candidates for it to be created, waiting times can ultimately also affect an individual's advancement through the next steps of his career and so on. That's why there is injustice.

We want to ensure that francophones and anglophones have access to the same benefits in their language within the Canadian Forces so that their careers can advance on the same level.

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

All other things being equal—and I don't know whether that's an anglicism—we've just completed our third round. I'd like to know whether other committee members would like to question our witnesses or whether you want us to proceed with a fourth round.

Mr. Chong, Ms. Zarac and Mr. Nadeau want to speak. We'll proceed in a counter-clockwise manner, starting with Mr. Chong. We'll be able to ask questions all at once.

Mr. Chong.

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you to our witnesses for appearing today.

Last May, the office of the ombudsman noted in a letter to the Chief of the Defence Staff that a number of improvements had been made in terms of the treatment of francophones at Borden. However, then, as now, the office has also indicated that a number of serious concerns remain unresolved.

In your opening remarks you note that there's a lack of bilingual instructors. There's a lack of good training manuals in French, and a lack of availability of courses in French. You also note that there is a lack of access to medical services and police services in French.

I have no doubt about the intention of the Minister of National Defence and our government and everybody involved to resolve these issues expeditiously, but where is the difficulty in trying to resolve these issues?

Let's just focus, for example, on the lack of training manuals in an appropriate quality of French. Do we contract out those services? Is it a problem with the company holding the contract to translate these manuals? Is it a lack of translators available to do translation? Where are the problems in the lack of training manuals in French?

[Pierre Daigle]

Mr. Chair, unfortunately, I don't think I'll be able to answer this particular question.

We did highlight some of the difficulties and some of the recommendations that were not fully implemented. I cannot really speak to why this has not been done. We were told in May of last year that there was immediate and ongoing correction of what was happening at Borden. We did verify that, and nothing happened.

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

Perhaps you could speak to the fact that some medical and police services are not available in French for service members at Borden. Is it because there's a lack of people available at other bases who could be transferred? Is it a lack of training resources for those staff?

We understand there are issues. That's why the ombudsman has indicated that, previously and today. I think what we're trying to do as committee members is to come up with solutions or ideas as to how we resolve this. It's difficult to do that as a committee if all that's being provided to us are the problems and there's no sense of the roots of these problems or a sense of where the solutions are.

My simple question is whether you could tell this committee what two or three things our government should do to resolve these issues. Is it in terms of money or of reallocating staff from Saint-Jean to Borden and vice versa? Is it a question of tendering again contracts for translation services that may be out there that are not up to standard? What are the two or three things that our government can do to more expeditiously address some of these concerns?

[Pierre Daigle]

We do recommend steps and things that need to be done in order to address this issue. It is up to the department and the Canadian Forces to select the best means of delivering what needs to be done.

To be fair, when we verified at Borden in February 2008 and we concluded that most of the major recommendations were not yet implemented, we produced our last letter in August 2008. From February to August 2008, it took us time to go through all the evidence, to collect the evidence and look at the answers, and so on, and prepare a file. I cannot say what has been done since that time.

Obviously, when we did our second follow-up visit to Borden, we found that what was needed in terms of those major concerns about training and services to the people had not been done.

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

The update you're giving our committee today is as of August 2008.