Official Languages Committee on June 2nd, 2009

[Richard Nadeau, Bloc, Gatineau, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

Good morning, ladies.

What I am about to say amounts to stating the obvious. We are in a provincial area of jurisdiction. As federal members of Parliament, we cannot start telling Ontario how to manage its schools. We know what that resulted in in the past: Regulation 17, in 1912, which abolished French-language schools in Ontario. My parents were part of that generation. My father, who will soon be 91, was not able to continue his studies past Grade 8. Fortunately for him, he was in Hawkesbury, in Eastern Ontario, because Ontario government investigators didn't dare go there.

[A voice]

They went to Guigues school.

[Richard Nadeau, Bloc, Gatineau, QC]

I am talking about Hawkesbury and municipal public schools. It's right near St. Isidore.

Having said that, there is something interesting in what you said. We have been talking about daycare. Having worked as a teacher in the Franco-Canadian system, I know that it is the gateway for recruiting students.

What is your view of the current government's decision to provide money for daycare, not to the institutions, but to the parents instead, on an individual basis? How has that affected you, if it has?

[Carole Drouin]

I agree with you that it is stating the obvious. For us, daycare services are key, because that is where pre-schoolers have an opportunity to master the language, if necessary, before starting school. The fact that programs have been transferred to the parents has affected us. Some of this funding could have trickled down to the institutions, so that they could get together and develop this service. Now the parents have the buying power, but how can parents in a minority community organize to develop a service that does not exist? That is where we are facing a huge vacuum or even more serious difficulties, in terms of setting up services that do not currently exist. The money is distributed differently, which removes the option of developing new daycare services.

[Richard Nadeau, Bloc, Gatineau, QC]

As you know, we live in a secular society. We do not live in a theocracy where religion decides everything—fortunately. For example, Newfoundland has a multiconfessional system. In Saskatchewan, Francophones decided not to have a French Catholic school board as well as a public school board. They preferred instead to merge them right from the outset, in 1995. It had been abolished by Anderson's Conservative government in 1931. You may recall that French-language schools in Saskatchewan were abolished by the Conservatives in 1931 and nothing was changed in that regard by the Liberal Premier Thatcher, or subsequently by the NDP. It was only in 1995, some 64 years later, that French schools were able to re-open, when Mr. Romanow was in office. A model was developed where French was really the key component in the communities.

Would you agree to give this some thought and could you possibly agree that there should be a merger? Constitutionally, that would be possible because it was done in Quebec through a unanimous vote in the National Assembly. In Quebec, the decisive factor is not whether you are protestant or catholic, but rather which language you use—French or English. The National Assembly and the House of Commons both gave their approval to such a system. So, with Queen's Park and the House of Commons, it would be possible to bring all Franco-Ontarians under a single system where language, rather than religion, would be the priority. Would you agree with such a system?

[Dorothée Petit-Pas]

No. That would not result in there being any more young people or students taking French. We conducted a study and talked to a lot of parents. If there were both a French public board and an Anglophone board, young people would be more attracted to Catholic education in English.

[Richard Nadeau, Bloc, Gatineau, QC]

I would just like to make one final point, Mr. Chairman, because it is important for our discussion.

At the French board, the Catholic religion is taught in the French system. Young people have the choice between a religion course and moral instruction. I am firmly convinced that this is something that warrants more thought.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

Mr. Godin.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Welcome, Ms. Drouin and Ms. Petit-Pas. Ms. Petit-Pas, I want to congratulate you for your appointment to the presidency.

I agree with Mr. Nadeau that this is an area of provincial jurisdiction. However, under the Charter, the federal government does have certain responsibilities towards minorities. It has to provide assistance so that adequate services can be offered. It is not a matter of dictating how the courses should be offered, but rather, helping to put the necessary infrastructure in place. I think your comments in that regard were very clear.

It is really almost sickening to see that two schools could be built side by side, where one has a gymnasium two or three times larger than the other one. As a parent, you would necessarily wonder where you should send your child. I think that is something that parents consider. We can imagine what is involved when it is a gymnasium, but in terms of the educational programs, is it a question of money or is it simply a local or provincial decision to offer fewer courses? Is there a need for additional funding to hire more teachers? Could you address that part of the equation?

[Carole Drouin]

Thank you for your question. You have touched on a couple of points that are, in fact, part of the solution. First of all, the funding model for course offerings at the secondary level in Ontario is based on the number of students enrolled. At the high school level, we have to find specialized teachers. At the same time, a certain class size is required before the recruitment of a specialized teacher can be justified. The current funding formula, with respect to hiring and offering attractive programming to our students, is part of the problem.

You touched on another issue as well, which is human resources. In some regions of the province, there is a lot of understanding and support from the Ontario government with a view to ensuring that the education system available to the Francophone communities is acceptable. However, at the school board level, we have trouble finding qualified teachers in some regions of the province who are able to teach in French. That may be another area where the federal government, through Human Resources and Skills Development Canada, or Industry Canada, could provide assistance with recruitment.

The problem is a multi-faceted one. Even though some courses are now able to be offered via video-conferencing in certain secondary schools, that is no match for what is available on the English side.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

A few minutes ago, you were talking about the distances people have to travel to go to school. But if more schools were built, there would be even fewer students. Right now, only 54% of the target population chooses to attend French schools, for all the reasons you outlined: fewer courses available, less attractive facilities, and so on. However, if there were good facilities and people came back, would they still have to travel long distances to go to school? Would that help?

[Dorothée Petit-Pas]

Yes, it certainly would.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

I would like to know more about the findings of the studies you conducted in that regard.

[Dorothée Petit-Pas]

At the present time, we do have some schools that are quite far away. For example, we have a school in Mississauga that serves five elementary schools that are quite far away. We have received funding to open an additional high school in Milton. So, we will be in a position to take in more students at the elementary level, who will then move up to high school, because the school is not far. Therefore, it would certainly be a good idea to have more schools close to elementary schools.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Do you have a problem in Ontario? Recently, I heard about a contradictory situation. They said on the news that in Prince Edward Island, where residents have been able to secure French schools, young people are attending classes in a building that houses a bar. For parents, it is not a very attractive option to send their children some place where there is a bar. I believe that, in Alberta, some English schools were closed, because new ones were under construction, and were subsequently offered to Francophones. So, they were able to be housed in the schools that had been closed.

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

Thank you, Mr. Godin.

We will move on now to Mr. Galipeau.

[Royal Galipeau, Conservative, Ottawa—Orléans, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I am pleased to welcome you to our Committee this morning. I have already stated that I may be in a potential conflict of interest. Indeed, I am probably the only one here who pays my taxes to you. I want to thank you for the excellent work you do with the limited resources made available to you by taxpayers.

To answer a question raised earlier by Ms. Zarac, I would just like to say that the number of school boards is the result of a merger carried out by the provincial government some years ago. Before that came into effect, there were a lot more public and Catholic school boards, either English or French. In 1998, the Ontario government undertook a rationalization of the system with this merger, that affected both the educational system and the municipalities. The merger that occurred at the municipal level was similar to what you experienced.

In terms of infrastructure projects, we are currently in high season. So, it is appropriate to talk about them. Even in areas where infrastructure is a federal responsibility, from one end of the country to the other, we have been making announcements about infrastructure projects that are being carried out with provincial governments. Clearly, section 93 of the Constitution Act, 1867, would require that we consult a provincial government—in this case, Ontario, a new partner in “Government Motors”—before interfering with school infrastructure projects. I think we need to know what is on your list, what the status of your negotiations with provincial partners is, and what we can do to help you in that respect.

My question does not deal with infrastructure; it is directly related to the development and vitality of the French language in our schools. This is something that has always been a concern for me. My four children went through that system—successfully, I might add. Living in French when you are part of a minority is often a source of anxiety. In fact, that is one of the reasons why some Francophones decide to abandon French when they reach high school. At some point, anxiety takes hold and they drop out. Either they go somewhere else or they drop out altogether.

I would like to see you and your school boards introduce incentives, so that your students enjoy the French language both in school and outside school. Too often, we focus on punitive measures. However, what we need are incentives, so that speaking, playing and working in French make people feel good.

What can we do with respect to infrastructure that would be helpful to you?

[Carole Drouin]

Thank you for your question. I would like to clarify one thing. There were no French-language school boards in Ontario prior to 1998. The Education Act only provided for French-language sections within English school boards. It is important to remember as well that all of this occurred only 10 years ago. In Ottawa, it was different, because there was a Francophone governance; but in the rest of the province, there were only English school boards. In 1998, the entire tax collection system was reviewed and four systems—English, French, Catholic and public—were set up in Ontario and given equitable funding. Those four systems have been in place since 1998.

You reminded me of the Canadian Heritage programs that often bring together culture and the education community through school-community centres. There are a number of them in Canada. In Ontario, because we are lucky enough to have some projects underway, we do not have many such centres. However, I think the whole question of infrastructure should be reviewed to allow our school boards, in more isolated areas—through a partnership such as that one—to set up a facility where they could meet with students and members of French-speaking community.

As regards infrastructure, our boards have developed 15-year plans to meet the needs of their target population. We have projections of the student population for the next 15 years and, every five years, we submit a capital assets plan to the Ministry of Education for the five years to follow. If you like, we could certainly share that information with you and make you aware of our requirements in terms of school facilities in each of the regions of Ontario.

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

Thank you. Mr. Galipeau; thank you very much.

I had neglected to declare my conflict of interest as well, since my godson did attend institutions run by your board.

Would anyone like to add anything—questions or comments? We have time for one last intervention.

On behalf of the entire Committee, I would like to thank you for being with us today. Your presentation was very well documented. Once again, congratulations for your excellent scores. I think your recommendations, as well as your message about capital assets, are perfectly clear. We wish you good luck, and do not hesitate to come back and see us if you feel the need to.

We will suspend the meeting for a few minutes before starting our in camera session.

[The meeting continues in camera.]