Official Languages Committee on Oct. 1st, 2009

[Marie-France Kenny]

I'm sorry. I couldn't hear you.

[Tilly O'Neill-Gordon, Conservative, Miramichi, NB]

Do you find that these projects are now reaching out into more communities? It seems that more and more communities in my constituency are taking advantage of these projects.

[Marie-France Kenny]

Yes. If you're talking about the projects that are funded by.... Well, more people are participating in our activities, which doesn't mean that the funding is getting bigger; it just means that we're getting more outreach.

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

Thank you.

Thank you, Madame O'Neill-Gordon.

So we will finish this third round.

We will now turn the floor over to Ms. Guay.

[Monique Guay, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

Thank you very much.

I would like to thank you, ladies, for coming here today.

You did in fact talk about a salary of $18,000 without any benefits, right?

[Marie-France Kenny]

I am not saying that it is the same situation everywhere, but this is the case in certain locations.

[Monique Guay, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

According to what you have said, these people have been there for a long time. This is quite an abnormal situation and these people are at a disadvantage.

Some people have worked in groups, associations or other organizations for a long time and have acquired experience that is essential for the smooth running of their organization. Obviously, when these people see that the money is not coming in, they leave. You are then forced to completely retrain new staff. You lose money, time and energy. Things must not work very well, under such conditions. With Canada Summer Jobs, students receive on-the-job training, often in their field of study. This is really a very educational experience. In many cases, they then go on to volunteer in certain organizations because they have truly enjoyed their experience.

Do you find it very difficult to recruit people, whether they be salaried staff or volunteers, because of this situation?

[Marie-France Kenny]

I must say that our staff, even the volunteers, suffer from burnout. The turnover rate in our communities is horrendous. In 2008, in some communities, the turnover rate was approximately 68% for a period of less than two years. It must not be forgotten that the community development cycle is from five to ten years. If we have to renew our staff every two years, we will get to the point where we will no longer really be able to make any headway. You are talking about an individual who is working for a salary of $18,000. However, small centres employ only one person, and this individual, in addition to doing community development, must look after accounting, promotion, volunteer coordination, social activities and, in many cases, cleaning the bathrooms of the community centre. Because of all these tasks, there is very little time left to do community development.

Some small centres have only one employee because they do not have the means to pay for any more. Indeed, they do not even have the means to pay the person they have hired a suitable salary. The individual who has to perform all of these tasks cannot do so in 40 hours. Our employees put in a lot of unpaid overtime. They are offered time off as compensation, but they wind up either not being available to provide service to the public or volunteering for their organization. And I am not counting the volunteer hours that they do for other organizations in their community.

[Monique Guay, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

Ms. Bossé.

[Suzanne Bossé]

We work with various departments and it is very important for them and for our communities, needless to say, that we work jointly and in optimum fashion when there is a staff turnover of 60%, 65% or 68%.

[Monique Guay, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

That does not make any sense.

[Suzanne Bossé]

Indeed, it is very difficult.

[Monique Guay, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

It is not functional.

[Suzanne Bossé]

Indeed. Some of our member organizations submitted computer-related projects to provide services to the public. Among other things, there was a project to renew the websites and make them more interactive. Unfortunately, it took so long to confirm the funding and the budgets were slashed so drastically that we were forced to simply turn the requests down. We talk about the accountability of the government and the various departments. I think it would be important to have an accountability framework for communities, but one that would be just as important for governments, as far as results were concerned.

[Monique Guay, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

You are re-submitting the same application. In fact, you are always filing the same application, as a community centre. As you said, you have one employee. In fact, you are filing the same application. Are you required to fill a binder and send it in each time you apply? This rule needs to be loosened; it's ridiculous. It is nonsensical since they know that you are applying for the same thing over again. It is recurrent, the same person will be employed. Furthermore, we are not talking about astronomical salaries. We need to find a different formula for these kinds of applications.

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

Perhaps an update needs to be added, and only the dates would need to be changed.

We will now conclude our third round of questions. Mr. Petit would like to question the witnesses.

[Daniel Petit, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Do I have five minutes?

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

Yes.

[Daniel Petit, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Good morning, Ms. Kenny and Bossé.

Ms. Bossé, we have already met on numerous occasions. You are one of our favourite witnesses.

A little earlier, Mr. D'Amours described three things. You had talked about them during the previous session. In fact, they are the reason for your request today. You said that something was not working. Naturally, we are trying to find a solution. Earlier, Ms. Kenny said that it was not all bad, that some things were good. We understand that you are between a rock and a hard place. You do not want to overly criticize us or say we are too nice, we understand that.

I want to ask about the machine. As Mr. D'Amours said, the minister cannot read these binders every day. When you talked about how thick the binders were, you indicated with your hands that they were about a foot high, perhaps even higher. To say that the minister would be responsible is completely irresponsible. He cannot read them all by himself, he needs help. We are talking about deputy ministers. Even if there are many deputy ministers, given the number of binders received, they cannot read them all. So we need to keep going down the line.

I want to know what kind of contact you have with those people down the line, the people with whom you have been talking for the past few years and with whom you are on a first-name basis. Are you telling them that the machine is broken? It is easy for a public servant to say that it is the boss's fault. That is what we hear most often. Once you have filed your application--and God knows that it is thick--it winds up in the hands of some public servant. Does it get stuck at the first level? I am trying to understand. I want to know to whom I need to speak. Do you understand what I mean? That is the problem.

[Suzanne Bossé]

In fact, as was mentioned earlier, Canadian Heritage listens closely to us. With regard to results, once the department receives the application, we have no clue because we are not part of the machine. How many people need to go over it, how many people need to sign it between the office of the officer and that of the minister? I cannot say. I have never heard anyone from the department say that it was the fault of the minister's office. I think that question is best put to Canadian Heritage. They would be in a better position to explain it to you. Honestly, I do not know. Perhaps cuts need to be made, to reduce the number of signatures needed before it goes to the minister's office. Does it all need to go to his office? I cannot really answer your question.

[Daniel Petit, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

You have answered it very well. I have already tabled applications for community organizations, in my own province and elsewhere. We had a timetable that showed us what step we were at. We were able to follow its progress. Do you have a structure in hand? You send it all out to the machine, to the bureaucracy, but you do not know who will—

[Suzanne Bossé]

The departments are not allowed to disclose the status of a file.

[Daniel Petit, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

You say that a directive was sent to you?

[Suzanne Bossé]

It is information that we were given.

[Daniel Petit, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Is this verbal or written information that you received?