Official Languages Committee on March 5th, 2009

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

Good morning, everyone, and welcome to this seventh meeting of the Standing Committee on Official Languages. I would like to thank you for being punctual and I apologize for being late. I am going to tell you that I was late because of family reasons, that is the catchall excuse for politicians, given that it is the school break week.

This morning, this is our third and final meeting regarding the overview of the visually impaired in a minority situation, unless I hear otherwise from committee members.

In order to continue and complete our work, this morning we will be hearing from two witnesses that I would like to thank for coming. We have with us Ms. Jen Goulden, who is a member of the board of the Canadian Braille Authority.

Welcome to our committee, Mrs. Golden.

We also have appearing Mr. Stephen Loyd, Director General, Office for Disability Issues, Department of Human Resources and Skills Development.

Thank you for coming this morning, Mr. Loyd.

I will explain how we normally proceed in the committee. As you have been told, you will first of all make an opening statement, and then we will proceed with an exchange with our parliamentarians during various rounds of questioning.

Without further delay, we will begin our meeting. Ms. Golden, would you begin please, we are all ears.

You can proceed either in French or in English. We have translation. Be as comfortable as you wish.

[Jen Goulden, Member of the Board of Directors, Canadian Braille Authority]

Je vais parler en anglais, just to save a bit of time.

My name is Jen Goulden, as you heard. I have a master's degree in linguistics, and I work for Canada Revenue Agency. I'm a certified Braille transcriber, and a proofreader as well. I work in English and French. I'm here today, also as you've heard, representing the Canadian Braille Authority. I'm also here partly because I live in Ottawa. We have members from all across the country, but I live here, so I'm here today.

What I want to say is very short. I don't have much to say except that the standardization of Braille in French...well, in English, or in any language for that matter, only serves to improve efficiency of transcription. It allows transcription to happen more quickly, more effectively. It's more cost-effective because the software can do more. Less human involvement is necessary, which makes things go faster and again is less expensive.

The benefits of standardization are many. It also means that students can access more information. For example, in the standardization of English Braille, I can get something from England that we may not have produced here.

A lot of good things are being done in Quebec. There's some funding from the provincial government. This is a really good thing. The unfortunate thing is that because provinces have jurisdiction to set their own standards on this, particularly in education, students outside of Quebec, be they francophones, or anglophones studying French, don't have the same kind of access. They don't necessarily have access to

an abridged braille in French.

So whether they're students attending a French-language school, or whether they're English students in immersion, or simply anglophone students studying French as a second language, they aren't necessarily going to have access to this level of Braille. The problem with that is that those of us who aren't able to access regular print are already limited in the material that we can access. So as braille abrégé is the standard, both in English and French, it's what you'll get unless you specify when you order something. Not as much is available in uncontracted Braille, so basically what's happening is these students are being limited even further because they aren't able to read this level of contracted Braille.

I can attest to this as an anglophone student who grew up in Ontario. I took French all the way through school, and I had to teach myself braille abrégé as an adult. I bought a book and I taught myself. I was able to do that, but it would have been better, and I may have had more opportunities, more access to information, if I had learned contracted Braille while I actually was a student.

So the summary of what I'm saying is just that there needs to be--you would know better how this works than I would--a federal way of ensuring that students across the country have access to the same things because there are good things happening; it's just that not all students have access to them.

That's essentially what I wanted to say. There are members of the Canadian Braille Authority board, Pierre Ferland is one, and he's actually from Quebec.... There are people who could give you probably a whole lot more detail, and probably even more statistics. I know this person in particular has worked on the standardization process, so definitely we are open to any questions you would want to ask. You can feel free to contact us at any time.

Thank you.

Merci. C'est tout.

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

Thank you, Madame Goulden, for this opening statement.

At this moment, before I turn to our second witness, I would like to inform you that with the help of our team we can provide you with a hearing device if you want to have simultaneous translation, because there might be some questions asked in French. So if you are willing to have some support or help, just let me know and we'll make sure you get the hearing device.

[Jen Goulden]

That should work.

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

All right.

We will continue with Mr. Stephen Loyd.

[Stephen Loyd, Director General, Office for Disability Issues, Department of Human Resources and Skills Development]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I would really like to thank you for your invitation to speak to you on behalf of the Office for Disability Issues.

The mission of HRSD is to build a very strong Canada, to help Canadians make good choices in order to have a productive and rewarding life, and also to enhance their quality of life.

In support of this vision,

The Office for Disability Issues, the ODI,

provides a focal point for disability issues in the Government of Canada. BCPH is focused on developing innovative and effective policies and programs that will provide the social and economic inclusion of people with disabilities, and BCPH is engaged in doing this work with a broad range of stakeholders, the CNIB being one, at all levels of government. We work with provinces and territories, the disability community, and civil society.

The mandate of the ODI is to develop and manage disability-related policies and programs; to support the development and sharing of knowledge on disability issues; to raise awareness and promote disability as an important component of policies and programs across government; to ensure ongoing stakeholder-client and provincial-territorial engagement on disability issues; and to serve as a model of accessibility for the federal government and provide leadership by example.

We have two programs to assist us in doing our work in the area of grants and contributions. The first is the Social Development Partnership Program. This program is aimed at the disabled and it provides funding to eligible non-profit organizations that are working to meet the social development needs of people with disabilities.

The second program is the Enabling Accessibility Fund. It provides funding to improve accessibility in communities by contributing to the capital costs of construction and renovations related to physical accessibility for people with disabilities.

Other activities that are currently being undertaken relate to the world of awareness--awareness building, promoting awareness of disability issues, and reducing stigma. In this work we are particularly focused at this point within our own department. We have a champion for accessibility. We have a task team on accessibility that's ensuring that HRSDC becomes a workplace of choice for people with disabilities and also a model for other federal governments. There is some very exciting work going on in the department with that.

As well, we oversee the production of publications and communications tools. A new publication that will soon be coming out relates to how to make an accessible meeting, basically. It's to assist people who are running meetings, to help them understand and think through and plan for making those meetings accessible. The other publication we produce is the federal report on disability programming, which is done on an annual basis.

One of the other areas we're currently working on--it's been newly launched--relates to the government's new registered disability savings plan for people with disabilities. Our department is responsible for the grant and bond aspects of that new program. Working with our colleagues in the learning branch of HRSDC, the bureau does the policy work and the program design work. The program is actually run through the learning branch. It's a very important new complement to the programming available for people with disabilities across the country.

The final thing we do is coordinate within our department the work we're doing in support of the 2010 Olympics and the Paralympics. We work with a variety of people within the department to do that.

In summation, I'd just like to make a few points of clarification. My understanding is that at the present time, the Government of Canada does not regulate the usage of Braille within Canada. I want to be clear that the Office for Disability Issues does not have the mandate to create or enforce accessibility standards. We work with others to that effect, but we are not mandated to do that.

My understanding is that the development of national Braille standards has traditionally been in the purview of the Canadian Braille Authority, Jen's organization, and the CNIB, under the umbrella of the Braille Authority of North America, BANA.

I can tell you that within HRSDC, and within other government departments like PWGSC, we conform to the standards of BANA and the Canadian Braille Authority at the present time. I can't speak for other departments, and I can't speak for the provinces and the territories in that regard.

Finally, I can say that our overall delivery arm is Service Canada, as you know. Service Canada is providing services to people with disabilities across its four service channels. It has in-person service at their Service Canada offices, through 1-800 O Canada, via the web, and via mail. Again, Service Canada, in its documents, also adheres to the standards of the BANA and the CBA.

That's it for me.

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

Thank you for sharing this information with us.

We will proceed with our first round, starting with Mr. Jean-Claude D'Amours.

[Jean-Claude D'Amours, Liberal, Madawaska—Restigouche, NB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

First of all, I would to thank our two witnesses for coming here in order to appear before the Standing Committee on Official Languages.

However, there is an issue I need to raise. Mr. Loyd, I do not know exactly which members of Parliament wanted to invite you here, although I do have an idea. Currently we are studying the standardization of braille in French. I would like you to explain to us the link between this study and you, given that the only thing that you have explained is the use of the 1 800 O-Canada number. I am trying to understand.

[Stephen Loyd]

I'm afraid the department does not have the mandate to work on the standardization of French. Therefore, coming to you today was to give you a sense of what we are doing and to let you know that is not part of the mandate of our organization, Mr. Chair.

[Jean-Claude D'Amours, Liberal, Madawaska—Restigouche, NB]

That's exactly what I gathered from your presentation, but I feared not fully understanding that point. I simply wanted to make sure that you were seeking to promote the government's plan, and not actually pinpoint solutions relative to our study on standardizing French-language Braille. In any case, let us move on.

Mrs. Goulden, I don't know if there's a difference between standardizing French-language Braille and English-language Braille, but you seem to be saying that this would be a good thing. However, this week, witnesses gave us a totally different view. Can you provide us your opinion? Why would standardization be advantageous?

If we focus solely on French-language Braille, all of the francophonie, with a few exceptions, are not inclined towards standardization, gathering from what we've understood. This would complicate things and require additional training for people who are already experienced in other forms of Braille.

[Jen Goulden]

You would like to learn of the advantages of standardizing French-language Braille, despite the fact that people do not think that this is a good idea. Is that your question?

[Jean-Claude D'Amours, Liberal, Madawaska—Restigouche, NB]

Exactly.

Last Tuesday, a woman from the Department of Education in New Brunswick, as well as a representative from Quebec, explained to us why standardization would complicate the lives of French-language Braille users.

You can answer my question in English, if you wish.

[Jen Goulden]

Very well, I will answer in English.

One problem with standardization is that when the standardization occurs, there are changes, of course. For me, for example, I've been reading Braille for many years, and now English Braille is being standardized, so there will be changes. When you standardize, obviously, there are compromises and things will change, so I have to learn some changes.

On a personal level, I don't really like change and part of me thinks I don't want these rules to change. I've known these rules all my life. I don't want to learn new ones. But from not such a personal perspective, as a person who wants to make Braille more accessible and more efficient, I guess I view it that initially there are some complications—because initially there are going to be some changes Braille users will have to learn—but the long-term benefits outweigh that.

I'm more familiar with the changes in English. I'm still in the process of learning which changes are happening in French Braille, but a lot of the changes are designed so that it's actually easier to learn, easier to understand. One of the processes the standardization committees looks at, what they work on, is things that people learning Braille sometimes find difficult, and they try to simplify them. So I agree with what this person was saying in the sense that initially it can be complicated, because there's sort of a change-over that has to take place. For example, all the information at the CNIB library, all the Braille books are in Braille the way it is now, in the standardized version of English. At what point do they start producing them? How do they phase it in?

So I agree with him in the sense that there are challenges to it, but I guess I think that anything that's going to make Braille more accessible, more cost-effective, because for us it's very expensive.... If I want to buy a book that might cost you $10 at Chapters, it could cost me $50 to $60, and I love to read and I don't have an endless supply of money with which to buy books. So anything that's going to make it more efficient I think is a good idea in spite of.... I guess I believe the advantages outweigh the disadvantages.

And while we're in the standardization process, particularly the members of our board who are from Quebec, we're not in a position to enforce. We don't have that kind of power, so we can come up with a standard and we can say this is the standard that will be used in Braille in Canada. And we're connected with the CNIB; they're involved in the process as well. So if they agree to it, then all the things the CNIB produces will be in the new standardized format of Braille, of course, but we can't go—

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

I'm sorry to interrupt you. You'll have plenty of opportunities to elaborate more on your thoughts. I just want to make sure every member has an opportunity to ask a question.

Mr. D'Amours, you will recall that members of the committee were interested understanding the link between standardization of Braille and federal organizations. With the help of the Library of Parliament, I have been able to identify the Office for Disability Issues as the federal representative that has the closest link to the topic we are examining right now.

[Jean-Claude D'Amours, Liberal, Madawaska—Restigouche, NB]

Mr. Chair, that is exactly why, from the very beginning, I said that the Committee on Human Resources should be given this file.

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

All right.

Mr. Nadeau.

[Richard Nadeau, Bloc, Gatineau, QC]

Good morning, Ms. Goulden and Mr. Loyd.

Mrs. Goulden, please continue answering Mr. D'Amours' question. You may answer in either French or English.

[Jen Goulden]

All right. Thank you.

I want to say that while we are involved in the standardization process, we don't have the power to make anybody follow it. Again, the CNIB is obviously one of the major Braille producers in the country, so if they agree to it, then much of the Braille produced will be in the new standardized format.

I think one of the issues is that nobody really has the power to enforce anything. Maybe someone does and I'm not aware of it.

We can come up with a standard, but we can't make anyone use it if they don't choose to.

[Richard Nadeau, Bloc, Gatineau, QC]

Okay.

Mrs. Goulden, my question is for you because you are the braille expert in this room. During our last two previous meetings, some witnesses told us that the Nemeth Code is mainly used in Quebec, Acadie, and in all other French-speaking communities across the great Canadian land. We were also informed that the code standardized and adopted in France in 2008 applied solely to that country, and importing the standardized code to America would create problems.

A person who is familiar with the Nemeth Code could more or less manage with the standardized code when dealing with literary texts, such as novels. However, as regards scientific material, the language changes completely, whether it be for scientific symbols or numbers that are used in mathematical or chemical equations. The Antoine Code is proposing something entirely new, but there isn't a crying need to adopt it, as Mr. Petit pointed out. It's almost as though if we were to change our 26-letter Latin alphabet to a completely different system.

We are talking about the code used by French-speaking visually impaired people. What do you think about standardizing Braille within the francophonie?

[Jen Goulden]

Again, part of the standardization idea is to make it so there aren't several different codes for someone to learn.

In English, it is the same thing; there are three or four codes. We have Nemeth. In French, there is the Antoine Code.

The idea was to make it so that people don't have to learn

the literary, mathematical, and scientific components.

It's to simplify it.

I wouldn't want to, because I am....

I study French, but I am not a francophone,

even though I speak it.

I wouldn't want to disagree. I respect what they have to say because it's their mother tongue. It's their first language, and in that sense how they feel about it is more relevant than what I think, as a français langue seconde, someone who uses it as a second language.

I can tell you what the advantages are, and I can tell you it's important for francophones, wherever they are, to have equal access. But again, I wouldn't want to overrule what someone says who has French as their mother tongue.

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

Thank you very much, Mr. Nadeau.

We will now move to Mr. Gravelle.

[Claude Gravelle, NDP, Nickel Belt, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Good morning, Mr. Loyd and Ms. Goulden.

Mrs. Goulden, I just want to clarify something. Did I hear you correctly when you said Braille was different among the provinces?

[Jen Goulden]

It's not so much that it's different, but provinces have their own jurisdiction. Probably the Braille isn't necessarily going to be different. For example, maybe if I had gone to school in New Brunswick as a child I may have had access to abbreviated French Braille, whereas I didn't in Ontario. So I think it's the level of access that might vary as opposed to the actual Braille. Or they might choose to use some of the abbreviations and not all of them, depending on where the material is acquired.

[Claude Gravelle, NDP, Nickel Belt, ON]

Do you think it should be the role of the federal government to standardize Braille across the provinces?

[Jen Goulden]

Honestly, I'm not sure whose role it should be. It's just that it seems at this point that nobody has the authority to do that. I'm not trying to come here and say the government should be doing this and the government should be doing that, because I'm not really sure whose place it would be. It's just that right now it doesn't seem to be anyone's place.