Official Languages Committee on March 12th, 2009

[Sylvain Segard]

In the circumstances, the graduates that we recruit are subject to the Public Service Modernization Act. As public service managers, we are all required to apply the merit principle. Obviously, that involves the individual's basic skills and whether that individual meets the linguistic profile required by the position.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Mr. Chairman, the purpose of my question is not to determine whether the people they hire are qualified, but how they'll be paid.

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

Mr. Godin, you can come back to that on the next round.

We'll now move on to Mr. Chong.

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to build on what Mr. Godin was saying about the whole issue of the public service, so I have a set of questions for the Canadian Association of University Teachers.

It seems to me that in recent decades the admission requirements for applicants going into undergraduate programs at Canadian universities have been relaxed with respect to another language and having second language courses or second language instruction. It seems to me that a number of decades ago, if you wanted to go to the University of Toronto, you needed to have a second language, whether that was Latin, or French, or the like. My understanding is that those admission requirements with respect to a second language have been relaxed. Is that correct?

[Greg Allain]

I don't know if there were actually requirements for the undergraduate level. There were quite a few at the graduate level. If you were going to do a master's degree or a Ph.D. in philosophy, you had to have German in addition to either French or English. There were things like that.

I think you're right. I think there has been a move to diminish those requirements--unfortunately, in my view. It's important to have these language requirements, I think, but there are a couple of places....

Is York one?

[Penni Stewart]

No. We dropped it.

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

Yes. You dropped it.

When I went to the University of Toronto--and this is from my memory--my recollection is that I had to have French as a requirement to be admitted to the university.

[Penni Stewart]

I don't ever remember that.

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

I don't think this requirement presently exists. Perhaps the Canadian Association of Second Language Teachers knows a little bit more about this, since they're actually teaching the high school students who are being admitted to these universities.

[John Erskine]

The value placed on second languages, both for exiting high school and for entering university, has greatly diminished. It used to be far more prevalent. There are the official policies and then there are what the guidance counsellors are recommending and what message is coming down, with the priority perhaps being put on other areas.

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

Is it true that, with respect to a language, the admission requirements for getting into an undergraduate program at a Canadian university have been relaxed?

[John Erskine]

Yes.

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

So it's not my imagination that this is the case. The irony is that as we live in an increasingly interdependent world, in an economy that is increasingly reliant on international trade, we seem to be pulling back from the need to learn or encourage second- or third-language knowledge. It seems to me to be the exact opposite of the direction in which we should be moving.

The other set of questions I had is for the public servants who are here. We're the largest employer in the country. We employ, through agencies, crowns, and directly, close to half a million Canadians. What steps have the department or central agencies taken--I know you don't work for central agencies, but I mean central agencies that you're aware of--to indicate to universities that we are not getting the graduates we need from the universities? We spend a lot of time and effort training recently graduated students from Canadian universities because they don't have the skills we need.

The one skill in particular that they don't have is the need to be bilingual. What steps are you aware of, if there are any, that have been taken to have that discussion with Canadian universities, to say, listen, you're not producing the kinds of graduates we need for today's public service with respect to knowledge of both official languages?

[Sylvain Segard]

Thank you very much for your question.

It's a very good question. In that regard, the Clerk of the Privy Council has written to the Prime Minister about public service renewal on a number of occasions and has certainly shared his views about this topic in the past. I'm aware of a number of initiatives, but I may not be the best witness to answer this question. You may wish to bring in some colleagues from the Public Service Commission or other members of the federal government to answer that question.

I am aware, for instance, that the clerk has asked every DM to sort of adopt a post-secondary institution and develop a relationship with that institution, and is also encouraging assistant deputy ministers to do so. In that connection, then, I suppose these would be the kinds of issues that might be discussed, but I am not aware that they were given specific guidance with respect to bilingualism.

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

Thank you, Mr. Segard and Mr. Chong.

An analyst told me that he had studied Canadian politics at Queen's University in Kingston. When he did his course work, bilingualism was required, and he is no longer bilingual today. That might be a point to retain when we draft our report in order to make a recommendation concerning it.

We'll now begin the second round. I would point out for our witnesses that the period granted to each parliamentarian is managed for each of them. If you want to intervene, I would ask you to speak to the parliamentarian who has the floor. I see some of signaling to me because they would like to say something. Address the parliamentarian who has the floor instead, if you want to speak.

I invite Mrs. Zarac to continue the discussion.

[Lise Zarac, Liberal, LaSalle—Émard, QC]

Thank you very much.

Good morning, gentlemen.

My question is for Mr. Chouinard. I examined your action plan 2006-2011. In the introduction, you mentioned that you have to work to improve access to francophone colleges in minority communities. You even cite the Prime Minister. I'm going to read the quotation.

It says the francophone and Acadian communities contribute to the nation's development and prosperity, from Nunavut to Point Pelee, and from the shores of Labrador to Victoria, through their resilience and ability to adapt and their sense of innovation. They are part of the process of building a proud, confident, modern, and united Canada. In this they represent a precious economic, social, and cultural resource for Canada. Thus it is essential that they be supported in pursuing their development in order to maximize their contribution.

The text continues, stating that, to continue in that vein, you will need tools. As this is 2009, and the plan extends from 2006 to 2011, do you now have the tools to achieve those objectives? Otherwise, what tools would you like to have?

[Yves Chouinard]

In recent years, through our RCCFC network, which comprises 58 institutions, we have had a certain amount of funding for projects. The RCCFC is a network of exchange, of partnership and so on. I must be honest in my answer and tell you: absolutely not. We would need a lot more money. In the draft budget that was tabled, I believe there is $2 billion for infrastructure. However, only 30% of that amount goes to the colleges as a whole. That's not really a lot when you're building a francophone network across Canada. Apart from those in New Brunswick, Ontario and Manitoba, I believe the colleges in the other provinces don't even have permanent facilities, apart from the Université Sainte-Anne in Nova Scotia. As for the others, they use premises leased here and there. We can't serve our communities from scattered premises. We can't create that synergy in the community to convince people to go and study there.

[Lise Zarac, Liberal, LaSalle—Émard, QC]

You're telling us that what little funding you have must be put into infrastructure. You can't really invest in the programs that will provide a return.

[Yves Chouinard]

The problem is bigger than that. When the federal government says it is ready to invest 50% in small institutions, those institutions don't get the other 50%.

When a province requests funding for institutions, whether it be $1 billion or $500 million, a percentage of that funding has to be earmarked for infrastructure for the francophone community, rather than leave it to the province's discretion to put that funding where it wants, forgetting the small francophone community. There should be a link between the federal government and the province to say that, if infrastructure has to be developed on the francophone side, a percentage of the budget is allocated to it. The province would be bound by that agreement. Otherwise, the provinces can spend the money as they want. That's why the francophone college institutions get peanuts.

[Lise Zarac, Liberal, LaSalle—Émard, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chouinard.

Do I still have time?

Perfect, thank you.

My second question is for Mr. Hopkins. You talked about student bursaries, and these are very praiseworthy programs. My children received bursaries. I'm currently contributing to the Canada Education Savings Program for my grandchildren. Do the criteria for access to these programs benefit minority students? Are there criteria that favour them in those programs?

[Mark Hopkins]

Mr. Segard will give you an answer.

[Sylvain Segard]

The department's learning directorate administers the BCPE program and education savings. To strictly answer your question, there are no specific criteria supporting the objective of bilingualism. It must be understood that—

[Lise Zarac, Liberal, LaSalle—Émard, QC]

If we want to achieve the objectives, couldn't we promote access for students in the official language minority communities through these programs?

[Sylvain Segard]

With your permission, madam, I would say that the basic objective of those two programs is to encourage Canadians to study at the postsecondary level to the full extent of their abilities. So they're trying to eliminate the financial barriers to their education. In that context, everyone who meets the basic financial criteria is eligible.

[Lise Zarac, Liberal, LaSalle—Émard, QC]

That shouldn't be an objective in Canada. This is a bilingual country.