Official Languages Committee on April 27th, 2010

[Lise Zarac, Liberal, LaSalle—Émard, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Good morning, gentlemen.

I'd like to talk about interprovincial migration. I know perfectly well that many immigrants decide, after arriving in a province, that it does not meet their expectations with regard to quality of life. In fact, they mainly come for economic reasons and for a quality of life. Consequently, employability is very important for them.

Have you conducted any studies on that type of migration and its causes? Does it cause an imbalance? What could we do to ensure that there won't be this migration that discourages linguistic duality?

[Jean-Pierre Corbeil]

On the whole, interprovincial migration is a relatively limited phenomenon, if you consider the francophone population in general. Of course, as we've seen from one census to the next or from one intercensal period to the next, there can be significant population movements, both francophone and non-francophone.

For example, between 1996 and 2001, more francophones left Quebec than settled in Quebec, and the difference was nearly 10,000 persons. Those people went mainly to Ottawa and Toronto. A number of them went to settle in Calgary and Vancouver. Following those migratory movements, over a period of five years, the francophone population outside Quebec rose by nearly 10,000 persons. Five years later, we observed a significant return of francophones who were originally from Quebec. They returned to Quebec and the francophone population outside Quebec declined by 5,000.

In general, immigrants who tend to leave Quebec are clearly immigrants who use French less than others. Perhaps it isn't their mother tongue or their first official language spoken; they tend not to have it from the outset. Sometimes this barrier can impede movement.

We do not see any considerable movement of francophone immigrants; there is no considerable movement, for example, from Ontario and British Columbia to Quebec. There may be some movements between border provinces, but that is not a very significant phenomenon. Of course, the economic issue is fundamentally important. We have heard all kinds of stories. For example, to prevent a school from closing, people absolutely wanted to attract immigrants. Immigrant couples arrived, everyone was happy, and the school stayed open, but the parents couldn't find work because their specialization was in information technology and there were no positions in that field.

This is an important consideration and it will greatly influence movements, much more than any intention to join a given linguistic community.

[Lise Zarac, Liberal, LaSalle—Émard, QC]

Let's talk about employability and about the importance of working for parents. We know that the immigrant population is better educated. Have you compared the average salaries of those people who go and settle in minority communities with those of immigrants who settle in the major centres?

[Jean-Pierre Corbeil]

In studying the censuses from 1991 to 2006, the 2006 Census in particular, we found that French-speaking immigrants are more educated than other immigrants, based on the number of university degrees. In addition, the main field of study or training will have a very high impact on ability to find work.

For example, Africans represent approximately 30% of the immigration population outside Quebec. Unfortunately, we observe that Africans are at a particular disadvantage in terms of the unemployment rate. In fact, they are more disadvantaged than less educated immigrants, as they may also have more specific training in fields in greater demand, for example.

That said, the unemployment rate is slightly higher among francophone immigrants, despite the fact that they are better educated.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Mauril Bélanger]

Thank you very much.

Ms. Guay, you have five minutes.

[Monique Guay, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

Good morning gentlemen.

Issues related to immigration statistics are highly complex. I see you have prepared a document, but I believe the idea will have to be developed much more.

In particular, there is a very serious immigration problem in British Columbia. We're not talking about francophone or anglophone immigration, but about Chinese immigration. We're trying to organize all that, and it's not necessarily easy. In Quebec, of course, people go to the major centres such as Montreal.

However, there is a program in Quebec designed to help immigrants settle in the regions. In my constituency, it's called Le Coffret. They're offered all the services so they can integrate. In other words, they integrate twice as fast as immigrants who settle in a large city.

I'm not going to hand over to my colleague because he's already had a lot to say, but I will let you answer his question.

[Jean-Pierre Corbeil]

Learning English and French is clearly fundamentally important for the integration of immigrants in regions outside Quebec. Learning English is clearly so for obvious reasons.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Mauril Bélanger]

We're hearing a little echo.

Thank you.

[Jean-Pierre Corbeil]

In fact, we always try to see whether this affects health services. We always think about the issue of active offer; we often think about awareness, so that immigrants who come and settle are well informed about the means available to enable them to enter the labour market and the communities.

I know that a fairly big job is being done in British Columbia in this area. Unfortunately—I don't know whether you can say it's unfortunate—these are often bilingual centres. For francophone immigrants to integrate or be entitled to certain resources, they consult anglophone or bilingual centres. That simply shows the importance of knowing and using both official languages.

As for regionalization, we know that the distribution of francophones is quite particular in Vancouver. And we can't encourage immigrants to go where there are no francophones. Vancouver is much more urban, although it's quite spread out.

In the case of Ontario, francophones essentially live in the east and in rural areas, whereas immigrants are in urban areas. Urging immigrants to move far away from the centres where there are more job opportunities is another matter all together.

I think we can help immigrants by communicating the information. If an immigrant knows he can obtain services, send his children to a French-language school and get a job if he moves to a particular region, the incentive to move is greater than if that information is not shared or is non-existent.

I don't know whether that answers your question.

[Richard Nadeau, Bloc, Gatineau, QC]

Are you letting me continue?

I've realized one thing. In some francophone centres—it doesn't matter which ones—permission was given, although that caused a scandal, to provide English courses to immigrants in order to take economic necessities into account. That's understandable. However, even though they want to combat assimilation and help the community, they're giving English courses to immigrants so they can integrate further. You can see the difficulty.

For me, it's preferable for immigrants to be in highly francophone areas if we want them to integrate into the francophone community, whether it be in Quebec, New Brunswick, Acadia or in the north, or in Ontario, in the towns and villages, in order to integrate economically as well.

Francophones themselves acknowledge this situation and say they want to retain immigrants by teaching them English. The primary link with the francophone community won't develop economically in French. As for integration, we find ourselves in a paradox that further encourages assimilation. That's the situation.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Mauril Bélanger]

Please answer quite quickly, Mr. Corbeil.

[Jean-Pierre Corbeil]

I'll answer you very quickly as follows. When we conducted the survey on the vitality of the official language minorities in 2006, nearly 50% of francophones outside Quebec stated, based on their experience, that they identified with both the francophone and anglophone groups. A kind of bilingual identity has emerged in Canada outside Quebec, and I would say that it's quite an issue.

The question is as follows. Francophones have this dual identity. For example, they use English at work, but nevertheless contribute to the development of the francophone community, in community centres and at home, and they send their children to French-language schools. Can they cope with this bilingual duality or identity? Is it necessarily harmful? That's an open question. There's a whole debate over this.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Mauril Bélanger]

Thank you.

Mrs. Glover, go ahead, please.

[Shelly Glover, Conservative, Saint Boniface, MB]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Welcome to our committee. I'm going to take advantage of the question Mr. Nadeau asked in the first round.

Mr. Corbeil, you said that Saint-Boniface had had a number of successes. I'd like to know what you were talking about.

[Jean-Pierre Corbeil]

We noticed that immigration outside Quebec represents 2% of francophone immigration. We have to see what's going on in the field, more locally. For example, we recently learned that a population of 400 Rwandan immigrants settled in Winnipeg. Those immigrants know French and want services in French. However that's not just the case of the Rwandans. Other immigrants from other regions of Africa also want to contribute, to integrate into the community and use the services. Of course, in examining their distribution over the territory, we realize that, although they do not settle in exactly the same locations as francophones born in Canada, these immigrants are nevertheless nearby and also tend to use services and to send their children to French-language schools or, at least, to schools offering immersion programs. So there is a will locally.

In various conferences, people have told us about experiences in the field where attempts were made to integrate these immigrants. We heard about a quite significant degree of vitality in the francophone community in Winnipeg and Saint-Boniface.

[Shelly Glover, Conservative, Saint Boniface, MB]

Are you aware of the strategies used to achieve that?

[Jean-Pierre Corbeil]

I don't have that information, but I know that, among the important factors, there is the issue of integration in job search efforts. There is integration through community centres, for example, through activities organized by francophones to which these immigrants contribute. So these are activities that promote integration since children can attend French-language schools. People are trying to integrate them into the broader francophone community.

When we look at statistics in Manitoba, we realize that we're talking about approximately 2,600 French-language immigrants. You'll say that's not very much, but Winnipeg francophones feel they're developing this approach. I also know that efforts have been made to provide information at offices outside Canada to encourage immigrants to settle in the francophone community in Manitoba.

[Shelly Glover, Conservative, Saint Boniface, MB]

Thank you very much.

I was aware of that, since I am the member for Saint-Boniface, but I wanted it to be shared with the committee. I can tell you that, in addition to the strategies you've already mentioned, we have others. For example, in Saint-Boniface, francophones are not only people who have French as their first language, but also those who, like me, were born anglophone and like to speak French—francophiles. Together we're helping to improve the situation of francophones. Embracing the cause of francophones in Saint-Boniface is working very well. This enables us to achieve some success. Recently, because we seriously believe in the idea of living in French, I approached our French-language newspaper to have it distributed to the immersion schools. These are some little things that we're doing.

You talk about services, and that's what I'm interested in. I'm not usually considered a francophone, according to your census. There is an impact on services provided, because those services are determined based on your census. So there are reasons to change the definition. In that way, we would clearly see that, in Canada, there are a lot more people who would like to have services in French than your formula or form shows.

Are there any other suggestions for improving the forms so that they more accurately reflect expectations, so that services are offered more widely to the public who, like me, are not really considered as rights holders? Has anyone considered having another form or another definition?

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Mauril Bélanger]

Go ahead quickly.

[Jean-Pierre Corbeil]

Quickly, I would say that you've raised a very current and extremely complex issue. If we had the day, perhaps we could examine it. I'll give you just one example. In the survey on the vitality of the official language minorities conducted in 2006, we surveyed 31,000 children outside Quebec who are considered anglophones, since English is their mother tongue, and who use that language most often at home, although those children regularly use French at home, with the French-speaking parent, and they attend an immersion school or a French-language school.

Let's talk about the definition issue. We previously tried something at the request of the Treasury Board Secretariat and following publication of the 2001 Census, since we added a question on other languages used in the home. With regard to people who have both languages, this is based on the approach we use, of course. If we divide them into two groups, we see that English is very often the other language they regularly speak in the home, apart from their unofficial language or third language.

So there are all kinds of issues related to the definition. I believe people are already examining this issue right now. It's quite a complex issue and one that definitely deserves some attention.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Mauril Bélanger]

Thank you, Mr. Corbeil.

Mr. D'Amours. No, pardon me.

Mr. Godin, pardon me.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

You're pardoned.

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh!

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

I don't know whether you touched on this. For example in British Columbia, how many people in the Chinese community, who learn both languages, have learned French? What are the results?

[Jean-Pierre Corbeil]

That's a very good question. I don't remember the number off the top of my head. We could easily provide you with that information. There is indeed an interest. It's a phenomenon that we've observed. Sometimes, when we look at statistics, we of course get the impression that people whose mother tongue is English tend more to attend French immersion programs at English schools. However, in the case of a not negligible percentage of immigrants in Vancouver, parents choose to send their children to an immersion school because they figure there are two official languages in Canada and that may be a significant asset for their children.