Official Languages Committee on April 29th, 2010

[Sylvie Boucher, Conservative, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

I am having a lot of trouble with the subject matter, in any case. I was hopeless at math.

[Jack Jedwab]

Mr. Castonguay is very good at math.

[Sylvie Boucher, Conservative, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

He probably would have been a very good teacher. As soon as anybody talked to me about figures, I would break out in hives.

Have you already done some analysis? If so, could the Committee be given that analysis?

[Jack Jedwab]

No problem. A ton of analyses have been done in both official languages. That material is available on the web. Fortunately, the government translates everything, so we are very lucky.

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

Thank you very much, Ms. Boucher.

In terms of any documents you may be sending us, we can have them translated into both official languages, if they are not already translated.

We now go back to Mr. Peter Julian.

[Peter Julian, NDP, Burnaby—New Westminster, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Julian.

You can see just how passionate people become when discussing these issues.

Mr. Castonguay, you mentioned earlier that in the next census, the number of Francophones is likely to decline. The Petit Robert defines Francophones as people who speak French. We know that the number of Francophones in Canada continues to rise. People may say that their mother tongue is English, and therefore they are not Francophones. But they are Francophones: they consume Francophone cultural products and they contribute to the vitality of all Francophone communities in Canada, as do the members of this Committee.

What I found most interesting about Ms. Lamarre's presentation was her point that we need to change our definitions if we really want to strengthen the vitality of Francophone communities in Canada.

I would like to come back to the questions I asked previously. What types of programs could be introduced in order to facilitate discussion and debate between the various communities that make up Canadian Francophonie? What should be done to expand access to post-secondary institutions? That really makes a difference.

What more should the federal and provincial governments be doing? If we agree on the fact that we want a dynamic French language in Canada, I think we have to look at the steps that need to be taken, rather than throwing in the towel and just leaving Francophones outside Quebec to fend for themselves.

[Prof. Charles Castonguay]

My point of view is that a type of territorial bilingualism would be more appropriate for Canada, much as in Switzerland or Belgium, or Finland for that matter, or other bilingual or multilingual countries.

[Peter Julian, NDP, Burnaby—New Westminster, BC]

Could I ask a question? I asked my questions in French. But you are answering in English.

[Prof. Charles Castonguay]

English is my mother tongue. My father was Ernest Napoléon Castonguay, and we never spoke a word of French together. I called his mother, ma mère, as I thought that was her name, like Florence or Edith. I called her ma mère until I was 20 years old, when I realized that meant ma mère, okay? I am that much of an anglo.

I think a territorial type of bilingualism fits Canadian reality. When I say territorial bilingualism, I mean not only bilingual districts to support francophone minorities—

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

Mr. Castonguay, please feel free to express yourself in the language of your choice. It is your privilege as a witness.

[Prof. Charles Castonguay]

Of course. Well, anyway, it is my mother tongue and I express myself better in that language. I'm sorry.

I just think it fits Canadian reality. The bilingualism and biculturalism commission, the Laurendeau-Dunton commission, thought in that direction also. If you are wondering what you might be able to do to help French in Canada, I pray you think of changing the

Citizenship Act, so that a person applying for Canadian citizenship who has taken up residence in the province of Quebec be required to prove that he or she has an adequate, minimal or sufficient knowledge of French. That falls within the jurisdiction of the federal government, I believe. You can do things like that. That would be tremendous helpful in fostering social cohesion in Montreal and in the Outaouais, in particular. We are talking about half of Quebec.

The bilingual belt within Quebec is Montreal, the Outaouais, and the Eastern Townships. Things are not going well, even in Quebec. You may be very preoccupied with the situation outside.

You're from B.C., Mr. Julian?

[Peter Julian, NDP, Burnaby—New Westminster, BC]

Yes, but--

[Prof. Charles Castonguay]

Okay. To answer Mr. Weston, 90% of francophones of French mother tongue in British Columbia, born in the province, adopt English as their main home language by the time they're 25 or 30 years old and ready to raise children.

That assimilation rate...you cannot graft francophone, international, immigration on such a stock without it withering and being a lost cause. I'm sorry, but those are the facts.

I'd like to say something about statistics and about something that would be called qualitative statistics. You asked, what's a francophone?

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

Very briefly, please, Mr. Castonguay.

[Prof. Charles Castonguay]

In my study in English I referred to a 2006 survey carried out by Statistics Canada pertaining to a sense of belonging. Respondents were asked with which language group they identify the most. To the francophone group only, mainly to the francophone group, to both groups equally, mainly to the anglophone group, or only to the anglophone group.

I mentioned the results in my presentation at nine o'clock. Francophones in the provinces outside of the bilingual belt and outside of Quebec essentially identified themselves as being anglos, French mother tongue. Later in life, as adolescents, young adults, mature adults, they identify themselves that way. That's the best definition of what a francophone is.

What do you feel? What is your gut feeling? How do you identify yourself? With which group do you identify the most? That is based on a random sample, not like most—

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

Thank you, Mr. Castonguay.

Once again, I must apologize for interrupting you. We are going to begin the third round. Then we will have to bring our meeting to a close.

Ms. Zarac, please.

[Lise Zarac, Liberal, LaSalle—Émard, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I agree with Mr. Castonguay about the fact that more effort must be directed towards minority regions. We have heard it said many times that more resources must be provided in order to maintain the vitality of these communities.

On the other hand, the picture that has been painted is extremely complex. That complexity is increasing, because in Canada, we are the product of multiculturalism. I can easily identify with Ms. Lamarre. I, too, have an immigrant ex-husband. My children have always been considered allophones, even though their mother tongue is French. We always speak in French.

My daughter now lives in Ontario. She has a child who speaks English most of the time, even though French is used in the family environment. So, it is a very complex picture. At some point, we will have to be able to distinguish between the language that is spoken and the Francophone identity. We are mixing up the two. Certainly, they are connected. In terms of the statistics, I firmly believe that you can make them say whatever you like, if you do not ask the right questions.

Do you think that Statistics Canada is asking the right questions, in order to provide us with an accurate picture? It is somewhat of a concern to see that there are fewer Francophones in Quebec or Canada and more and more Anglophones. But is that an accurate picture?

[Patricia Lamarre]

Statistics Canada has data which, in my opinion, receive minimal processing and have not been adequately analyzed. Statistics Canada provides a great deal of information and that information is expensive to process. Also, there needs to be a desire to understand the complexity.

For 40 years now, our society has been organized based on a framework of linguistic duality. That has made it possible to establish a certain linguistic peace in the country over a 40-year period. I think the communities and the people who live with these languages—even some who identify themselves as Francophones, Anglophones, as well as all the others who do not necessarily identify themselves in that way—will completely transform the way we live with and experience the official languages in Quebec and Canada. The Francophone community in Quebec is changing just as much as the Anglophone community changed last year in Quebec. Quebec Anglophones are very multicultural and Francophones will become that way as well, thanks to Bill 101. That was the purpose of Bill 101: to bring people in from other places, because that brings about change from the inside. So, yes, the statistics can tell us a lot of different things.

In 2006, if my memory serves me, there was a survey on official languages that asked far more nuanced questions. Statistics make it possible to introduce a lot more complexity into our observations. However, what we see in the media and what is often used to alarm people are statistics that have been “flattened”.

Let us look at the statistics, but let us do so in a discriminating and nuanced way. That takes nothing away from what ethnography and statistics can contribute. There are two types of research that can enlighten us in different ways, but we cannot rely on one type of research alone.

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

You have one minute left, Ms. Zarac.

[Lise Zarac, Liberal, LaSalle—Émard, QC]

Can you tell us what you mean by “flattened” statistics?

[Patricia Lamarre]

What do you do when someone gives two answers? Do you attribute half to Francophones and the other half to Anglophones? If you say that you have two mother tongues, you do not exist.

[Lise Zarac, Liberal, LaSalle—Émard, QC]

So, do you think we are asking the right questions?

[Patricia Lamarre]

The question is asked, but the answers are not processed accordingly. Furthermore, often the majority of questions used in the surveys that have been done up until recently—that is changing now; the indicators are changing—have been: what language is most often used at work? What language is used most at home? They do not ask: what languages do you use at home? What languages do you use at work? And in what proportions?

But that has changed. The Government of Quebec's data is far more nuanced with respect to the languages used at work. It provides a more nuanced picture. So, it is possible to arrive at a more nuanced picture from statistics.

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

Thank you very much, Ms. Zarac.

We'll now go to Ms. O'Neill-Gordon.

[Tilly O'Neill-Gordon, Conservative, Miramichi, NB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Welcome. It's great to have you here this morning.

Coming from the province of New Brunswick, Canada's only official language...and also being an educator, I have to reiterate the words that were said here this morning. I certainly saw, personally, an increase in English-speaking people putting children in schools for French as a second language and for French immersion. I see that the English-speaking people are trying more and more to become bilingual and to learn the French language as well as English.

With respect to the attraction, the Citizenship and Immigration Canada francophone minority communities steering committee favours French language post-secondary educational institutions as a means of increasing the number of francophone permanent residents. Do you regard this as a good strategy, and are English language institutions in Quebec doing the same thing for anglophone immigrants?