Official Languages Committee on Feb. 7th, 2011

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

Good evening, everybody, and welcome to this 44th meeting of the Standing Committee on Official Languages.

Tonight, pursuant to Standing Order 108(3)(f), we continue our study on the development of linguistic duality in northern Canada.

We are very pleased this evening to be receiving an impressive group of witnesses who took the time to come out at this, I would say, late hour, as far as we from Eastern Canada are concerned. Thank you very much for being here and for accepting our invitation to appear. Members are anxious to hear your comments.

Today has been quite an amazing day. As you know, this is the first time the Standing Committee on Official Languages has visited the Far North since it was first established almost 30 years ago. The committee visited the southern half of the country several years ago, and now we are completing our tour of minority language communities.

With me today is my analyst, Lucie Lecompte, who will be drafting a fine report on the testimony we received today and will be hearing in the course of our tour. Our clerk, Mr. Simon Larouche is ultimately the person in charge of organizing this entire operation. To my left are three members of the three political parties that form the Opposition, with the arrival of Mr. Godin, who is joining his colleagues from the Bloc Québécois and the Liberal Party. To my right are my colleagues representing the government party. We really are in the minority, particularly so this evening. I should point out that one of our colleagues was delayed because of a problem with his flights and is awaiting our arrival in Yellowknife, where we will be travelling to tomorrow.

But before that, we are very anxious to hear from you. Tonight, we have three groups of witnesses. The first are people we met with this afternoon, representing the Yukon French Language School Board. It is represented by the Chairman, Mr. André Bourcier, whom I want to especially thank for being with us throughout the day. We also have with us the Executive Director, Ms. Lorraine Taillefer. Welcome. And you have supplemented your delegation this evening with the Chairman of the Board of Directors of the Garderie du petit cheval blanc, Mr. Martin Guilbeault. The day care centre is located right across from l'école Émilie-Tremblay. Welcome to the committee, Mr. Guilbeault. Ms. Isabelle St-Gelais, Director of the Garderie du petit cheval blanc, is also here. So, that is our first group of witnesses.

The second group appearing this evening is composed of individuals who came from Dawson to be with us. We are very pleased to welcome Ms. Julie Leclerc, a member of the board of directors of the Centre de la francophonie in Dawson, and Ms. Marie-Ève Owen, also a member of the Centre de la francophonie in Dawson.

Finally, we have Ms. Sylvie Geoffroy, representing Espace France-Yukon.

You will be asked, each in turn, to make your opening statement. Now, honour to whom honour is due, and I want you to know that these people have been with us throughout the day. Now we are going to give them an opportunity to address us directly. I therefore invite the representatives of the Yukon French Language School Board to make their opening statement.

[André Bourcier, President, Commission scolaire francophone du Yukon]

Mr. Chairman and members of the committee, allow me first to thank you, on behalf of the Yukon French Language School Board, for giving us this opportunity to address you this evening. With me is the Executive Director of the School Board, Ms. Lorraine Taillefer.

The Yukon French Language School Board was officially created in 1995, after several years of struggle to have the importance of school governance for the Francophones of the Yukon officially recognized. The CSFY and Émilie-Tremblay School exist thanks to the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms, which recognizes the right of minority language communities to education in their language. Section 23 of the Charter also recognizes that these communities have the right to manage their education system. These rights go hand in hand and one cannot exist without the other.

On Wednesday, February 18, 2009, the Yukon French Language School Board filed a suit against the Attorney General of the Yukon before the Yukon Supreme Court. Pursuant to the Yukon Education Act, the school board has, for several years now, been asking for comprehensive school governance. This implies the management of programs, buildings, personnel, finances, as well as the right to admit non-rights holders into its education system and schools. The Partenariat communautaire en éducation, which represents a variety of Francophone community groups working in the educational sector, expressed its unanimous support for the legal action taken by the school board.

The CSFY is asking for an adequate level of funding to carry out a mandate that is not limited to the City of Whitehorse alone, but extends to all of the Yukon. The CSFY would like to have the means to provide French-language education of a quality equivalent to that of the majority. For that reason, we are also asking that a separate secondary school be built so that we may welcome our students into a facility that will appropriately respond to their needs.

The federal government, through minority language education bilateral agreements, funds the additional costs related to French-language education. The CSFY considers that this funding creates a fiduciary obligation on the part of the Yukon government towards the Franco-Yukon community. In its legal action, the CSFY highlights the fact that the Yukon government is not fulfilling that obligation. And so it is important that the Department of Canadian Heritage play a monitoring role and engage in direct consultations with French-language communities in the territory.

It is also important to support early childhood education for Francophone children, in order to ensure the sustainability of our educational system and the full development of our community. In the past, the federal government has demonstrated a will to fund the needs of minority communities in early childhood education. We believe that the federal government should make the development of the appropriate infrastructure for early childhood education services in minority communities a priority.

Community development cannot occur without the development of solid institutions, something which requires a partnership between the community and the government. Yukon's legislation establishes French as the working language of the CSFY, but it is very difficult to obtain services in French from the various ministries in the Yukon. For several years now, we have been asking for a seat on the territorial government's Consultative Committee on Services in French. The government's position is that this committee does not deal with education issues, and thus it is unnecessary to offer a seat to the CSFY. However, the CSFY is a member of the public and should, as such, have the right to services in French, as stipulated in the Yukon's language legislation. Through its personnel, it also represents students and their parents, who constitute close to half of the Francophone population.

The Yukon is the only territorial jurisdiction not to have an official languages commissioner. The Yukon Languages Act offers minimal services to the French-language community and no protection for aboriginal languages spoken in the territory. Although education and language fall within provincial jurisdiction, the powers exercised by the territorial legislature are powers that are delegated to it by the federal government. The current constitutional structure ultimately makes the federal government responsible for the enforcement of legislation in the territories. Indeed, it is impossible for the Yukon legislature to amend its Languages Act without the approval of Parliament, as stipulated in section 27 of the Yukon Act. Thus there is a need for the federal government to fulfill its responsibilities by affirming and promoting the development of Francophone communities in the North.

Thank you for your attention. We are now ready to take your questions.

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

Thank you very much, Mr. Bourcier.

If I'm not mistaken, the people representing the Garderie du petit cheval blanc are also here to answer questions with respect to Mr. Bourcier's presentation.

[Isabelle St-Gelais, Director, Garderie du petit cheval blanc, Commission scolaire francophone du Yukon]

Yes.

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

Fine, thank you.

We will move now to the second group. I invite the representatives of the Centre de la francophonie in Dawson to make their presentation.

[Julie Leclerc, Board Member, Centre de la Francophonie à Dawson]

I, too, would like to thank you for this invitation to appear.

Good evening.

Just to give you an idea of the time span involved, I should point out that there has always been a Francophone community in Dawson, ever since the gold rush.

In the late 1980s and early 1990s, an effort was made to rally Francophones and have them join forces. Action was also taken to develop a profile of Francophones outside the capital. Then in 2009—not so long ago—a separate group, called the Centre de la francophonie in Dawson, was established.

Since then, we have been building on the momentum first created in the early 1990s. There are a great many sociocultural activities, something that enables us to get together and talk about our experiences. We have given classes in French for adults interested in perfecting their French, in order to preserve it, or actually learn the language. We have also have supported the Francophone community in recent months in myriad ways, as it feels the need to be represented because of specific situations.

The Centre de la francophonie in Dawson is a new group which believes its presence here today is important in order to represent its community. I think that is really what it's all about. It's also about allowing people to get together, engage in discussion and assess their circumstances. That is basically what the centre is all about.

I am curious to see how the session will unfold. This is my first time taking part in a meeting of this type, and for that reason, I will say nothing more for the time being. Mr. Bourcier made a very good presentation and provided a great deal of information.

There are a number of things occurring in Dawson at this time. I think it's important to make you aware of the situation. Even though we have been actively engaged with Francophones for more than 25 years now, there are still major challenges. That is why I feel that it is appropriate for us to be here today.

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

Perfect. Excellent. In any case, committee members will have questions for you.

Ms. Geoffroy, from Espace France-Yukon, please.

[Sylvie Geoffroy, President, Espace France-Yukon]

I would like to thank you for giving us this chance to address you and be heard. Espace France-Yukon represents French nationals living or visiting the Yukon. Our mission is to promote exchanges between the Yukon and France, to promote French culture and support French nationals passing through or residing here in the Yukon.

Our association operates thanks to the work of volunteers. We have no paid employees. We pretty well rely on everyone.

Perhaps I could just pass on a few pieces of information with respect to linguistic duality and services in French that are offered here.

An effort has been made to develop bilingual priority services at the territorial level. That's important, and we very much appreciate it, but it is disappointing to have to rely on the services of interpreters, who sometimes do not have the necessary skills in the areas where they are needed. One example would be a telephone line people can call to speak to a nurse. Anyone can call and, if you ask for a French interpreter, they go and get one so that people can understand each other. On a number of occasions, we have dealt with interpreters who did not understand what the individuals were saying about health-related issues. The symptoms were mistranslated. The nurse could not understand us. Basically, it was absolutely useless. We would like to have access to competent interpreters in certain areas, particularly health and safety.

Another important area is cultural dissemination. That is the major topic of discussion in the Yukon at this time. In our case, Internet downloading is limited. People have to pay if they exceed the volume that's allowed. Because we live in a remote area, we have no choice but to do that in order to access films, documents and other material. It's expensive for us. Also, there is a television monopoly and we do not have access to all the French-language channels that could be available. The best example is TV5. We cannot receive it on digital television, although we can on analog television. That channel was removed at one point, but because Francophone organizations protested, it was reinstated, although not on a permanent basis. So, options are limited. It is something to be considered.

Furthermore, with respect to the library and the books available to us, I know that space is reduced. However, we would like to see more funding for libraries, so that they can access more books and literature—for example, so that we could access books that have received awards, whether they are Canadian or French. We hear about them on the radio, which is great, but we don't have them here. We would like to have more access to the culture in order to preserve our French and improve it through greater access to books, films and material of all kinds.

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

Perfect. Thank you very much, Ms. Geoffroy.

Without any further ado, we will begin our first round with Mr. Murphy.

[Brian Murphy, Liberal, Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I have several questions with respect to the legal action taken by the CSFY. The case has now been heard and we await the decision of Justice Ouellette. I read the newspaper article on it in L'Aurore boréale. During cross-examination, the government lawyer, Mr. Baril, argued that it is impossible to know “whether the student retention rate at the secondary level really was low, there being nothing to compare it with”.

I would like to ask Mr. Bourcier if there are any figures or any evidence with respect to the student retention rate at that wonderful school.

[André Bourcier]

We have the only evidence we could possibly have. Because the Yukon is a very small territory and Francophones represent a minority in the territory, the figures we receive from Statistics Canada are always very imprecise. There is no way of knowing whether they have reached everyone, and it's always one in five whenever official languages are concerned. As as result, estimates produce strange numbers. For example, we were told in 2006 that there were 190 children who were rights holders in the Yukon. But we have 184 in the school. So there is something wrong with that calculation. Exactly what were good comparators, in terms of numbers, was not exactly clear.

On the other hand, I can tell you that we currently have 144 students at the primary level and 41 at the secondary level. If we had a retention rate of 80% at the secondary level, of students already registered in the system starting at the primary level, we would have approximately 230 students in our education system. If we use current registrations to assess our retention rate, we arrive at numbers that make sense, but those numbers have been challenged by our government, represented by Mr. Baril.

[Brian Murphy, Liberal, Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB]

You also used the services of an expert by the name of Lee Kubica.

[André Bourcier]

Yes, that's correct.

[Brian Murphy, Liberal, Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB]

Were you present when he appeared?

[André Bourcier]

Yes.

[Brian Murphy, Liberal, Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB]

Does he provide a professional opinion on that?

[André Bourcier]

He used the figures that I have just given you with respect to the way it could work.

Rodrigue Landry also appeared as an expert. According to his evaluation, there are potentially 450 children who are rights holders.

[Brian Murphy, Liberal, Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB]

In conclusion, according to the experts, the Yukon needs a new secondary school.

[André Bourcier]

Yes.

[Brian Murphy, Liberal, Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB]

I have another question. A briefing note prepared by the Library of Parliament says that you are critical of the fact that federal government funding for the teaching of French as a first language is being used to fund the teaching of French as a whole in the Yukon. In fact, the Yukon government is not being transparent when it comes to the use of federal funds for projects such as these.

Can you comment on that information? Does the CSFY believe the Yukon government is not being transparent in terms of its use of federal funding?

[André Bourcier]

Absolutely, and that is one of the reasons why we are asking for comprehensive school management, including financial management. For the time being, the school board manages $550,000 in federal funding which is provided to the Yukon on a yearly basis, whereas the federal government is actually giving the Yukon government $1.1 million for French first-language education. In other words, we are managing only about half of the federal funding that is being provided.

Our position is as follows: the money from Canadian Heritage for French-language education is complementary funding, given that minority education is more expensive. We argue that our children are Yukoners, that education falls within provincial jurisdiction and that, as a result, they have to pay. They have to pay whatever it costs for our children.

Given that they are also Francophones, the federal government will make an additional contribution for additional costs. Unfortunately, we never see where the money goes; we don't even see where all of the federal money goes. So, we want to know where that money is going. Are we really receiving the share we should receive as Yukoners? We do know that we are not receiving all the federal money, because we only have half of it. That is why we want to manage our education system as a whole. We want to manage the teaching staff, the buildings, own our buildings, manage the buses and caretaking staff, and so on. We want to manage it all, so that we know exactly what our situation is.

This morning, the Deputy Minister of Education told you that there is only one school board. That's true. Francophones are the only ones to have asked for a school board. However, all Yukoners are in a position to ask for a school board. They simply haven't done that. Because the Ministry of Education acts as the school board for all the English-speaking schools, we never see where the money goes or how it is being spent. We know there is a large budget, but we don't know where the money has gone.

[Brian Murphy, Liberal, Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB]

Mr. Chairman, if I were a member of the government, I would be asking a lot of questions of the Yukon government with respect to what happened to federal funding earmarked for this project.

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

Indeed, Mr. Murphy; these are things we will be looking at when we write our report. Thank you.

We will move now to Ms. Guay.

[Monique Guay, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

We were delighted to have a chance to visit your school this afternoon. You are very well organized, and the young people there seem quite dynamic. They all speak very good French; it's great. It's not easy for a minority to try and preserve its language—French, of course.

Do you know when there will be a ruling on your court action?

[André Bourcier]

We are expecting to know the results between the end of April and early August. Obviously, one never knows when a judge will be ready to hand down his ruling. It's a very large proceeding; the trial lasted eight weeks and there were 540 pieces of evidence filed.