Evidence of meeting #79 for Official Languages in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was teachers.
A recording is available from Parliament.
4:05 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Michael Chong
Perhaps I could help. One of our previous witnesses suggested that we put in place a national or common standard to measure French language outcomes, because apparently there's no standard tool.
4:05 p.m.
Executive Director, Canadian Association of Second Language Teachers
There should be one for English as well.
4:05 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Michael Chong
The type of thing you're looking for would be something like le Cadre.
4:05 p.m.
Executive Director, Canadian Association of Second Language Teachers
It's basically a common language for identifying language levels so that when people come out of high school, they know exactly what their level is, so that when they go to university or college, or enter the job market, all of the participants in this process will understand what is a B-1, B-2, or A-1.
4:05 p.m.
Executive Director, Canadian Association of Second Language Teachers
Yes, that is it. If we had a standard across Canada, that would be very useful for all the provinces and obviously for the territories as well.
The second thing is really to invest more money, obviously, in creating second language programs, including French immersion.
4:05 p.m.
Liberal
Stéphane Dion Liberal Saint-Laurent—Cartierville, QC
All right.
Ms. Kenny, do you want to say something on the subject?
4:05 p.m.
President, Fédération des communautés francophones et acadienne du Canada
Two things would be very important. There is the entire accountability issue that I discussed and that I would add here.
We often receive documents from the Fraser Institute on the cost of linguistic duality and bilingualism. It would be a good idea for the government to prepare a report on the added value and economic value of having a bilingual country and to promote it extensively to the provinces. They would then understand the valid reasons for having French schools, immersion schools, core and intensive French schools and English schools. That would enable the provinces to gain a clearer understanding of the impact of all that and to ensure they have the necessary infrastructure.
4:05 p.m.
Liberal
Stéphane Dion Liberal Saint-Laurent—Cartierville, QC
Ms. Kenny, according to the roadmap, the government intends to spend more than $100 million on economic immigrants. From the way it is written, one might fear that this money could go to English-language instruction for newcomers at English-language schools. I understand that this is a need for the country, but do you think that is something that should appear in the roadmap, which concerns the official language communities and the cause of official bilingualism?
4:05 p.m.
President, Fédération des communautés francophones et acadienne du Canada
Thank you for the question.
There has been little response to the $120 million that Citizenship and Immigration Canada proposes to invest. This is obviously a question that we have raised, but we have not yet received a response. I will be meeting Minister Kenney next week, and this issue is definitely among the priority topics we would like to address with him. We could very definitely get back to you on that later on.
4:05 p.m.
Liberal
Stéphane Dion Liberal Saint-Laurent—Cartierville, QC
Thank you. If you can get a response from the minister, you will be more effective than I.
4:05 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Michael Chong
All right.
Thank you, Mr. Dion.
I thought I would read this into the record. You had asked about enrolment in French immersion programs and what the stats are. There was an article in The Globe and Mail last September about the Peel region, which has been one of the heaviest immigration regions in Canada in the last 20 years. The Peel region includes Brampton and Mississauga.
French immersion enrolment in grade 1 went from 9.4% in 2001 to 25.4% this year, 2012-13. The board had to cap enrolment at 25.4% because it did not have enough French teachers to teach the children.
That's one example that I wanted to read into the record for the analysts. That was reported in September 2012 in The Globe and Mail.
4:05 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Michael Chong
Yes, but I thought that was a stat that would be useful for the committee to have.
We'll continue with Monsieur Trottier.
4:05 p.m.
Conservative
Bernard Trottier Conservative Etobicoke—Lakeshore, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thanks to the witnesses for being here with us today.
Mr. Leclair, I really appreciated your presentation because you provided quite specific recommendations on certain programs. These are quite independent federal programs with which we can avoid this accountability problem; that is to say that we can transfer funding to the provinces and ensure that it is included in total funding for education. However, this funding often gets lost, although, when independent programs are managed at the federal level, I think it is possible to trace the funds.
You spoke, for example, about exchange programs and university internships. A lot of your ideas concerned older students, not that young, and I believe that relates somewhat to the problem I have often seen, the problem of students who drop out. Some students start out in immersion programs but become somewhat rebellious teenagers and sometimes drop out.
What can we do to encourage those students? What incentives could we offer them to make them stay in immersion or French programs?
Ms. Kenny, I believe you have noticed that French is often the language of ambition in regions such as Toronto and other regions of the country. However, there is this problem of students dropping out. How can we really encourage teenagers to stay in immersion programs?
4:10 p.m.
Executive Director, Canadian Association of Second Language Teachers
There again, to work at the primary and secondary level, we would have to improve not only the quality of teaching, but also the approaches used. Young people today are very connected through social media and on the Internet. I therefore believe that the transition is happening in second language teaching resources, but it is not complete. So learning has to be interesting to students. We therefore have to be aware of that fact. That is also why we are working at the postsecondary level. We want to create postsecondary models for second-language learning because we believe that, if we promote opportunities in the labour market, universities and colleges, students attending bilingual or francophone institutions will think that is possible. That will create openings that we consider promising. However, I believe that a lot of work has to be done on educational resources, educational material and teacher training. That has to be modernized and we also have to invest in that area. Young people say that all they learn when they opt for an education in French is verbs. That is not really interesting. It is an old approach. The new approaches are communicative, interactive and much more dynamic than the old methods, and we have to work on that.
4:10 p.m.
Conservative
Bernard Trottier Conservative Etobicoke—Lakeshore, ON
Immersion in fact does not stop at the secondary level, although we normally talk about the primary and secondary levels. There are also university programs, and students can make choices.
I can give you an example. I recently spent an afternoon with master's-level students at the Glendon Campus of York University. There is an international and government affairs program there. Those students, who are future leaders, diplomats, public servants and business people, truly value the fact that they can get an education in both languages. The program is bilingual on an approximately 50-50 basis.
Can the federal government promote this idea and encourage teenagers in high school to pursue postsecondary studies in French? I am not necessarily talking about an immersion program, but that can be part of it.
4:10 p.m.
Executive Director, Canadian Association of Second Language Teachers
Yes, absolutely. The federal government could offer incentives to universities to provide French courses to students wishing to continue learning that language. A course or two would be ideal. That would be absolutely feasible and desirable.
4:10 p.m.
Conservative
Bernard Trottier Conservative Etobicoke—Lakeshore, ON
Ms. Kenny or Mr. Quinty, I would like to hear your comments on that.
4:10 p.m.
President, Fédération des communautés francophones et acadienne du Canada
Like many of our French-language schools, our immersion schools do not have the necessary infrastructure to deal with the issue of students dropping out.
Let us suppose that a student wants to become an electrician. Not all French-language schools or immersion schools offer secondary level courses that would enable that student to pursue studies in that field. That is one of the reasons why students preparing for trade school, CEGEP or university drop out to enter majority schools where they have access to more programs.
As for incentives, I believe we have to consider the parents who register their children in French-language schools. First we must ensure that we have the necessary infrastructure and that we do not simply lengthen the waiting list. Immersion schools are managed by the English-language school districts. Is there not a way to get incentives directly from them so that anglophone students can take immersion programs and we can promote them?
There are bilingual leaders around this table, in this government and across the country who are, to my mind, models who should be followed. These people could also serve as models for parents and children, who could then see the contribution that bilingualism actually makes to leaders of this country. That, for me, is a very important message. I will not conceal the fact that the best possible model for French-language learning is an anglophone. When I talk about linguistic duality, I seem to be preaching to the converted. However, an anglophone who talks about the benefits of speaking French has a lot more impact on anglophones.
May 7th, 2013 / 4:15 p.m.
Serge Quinty Director of Communications, Fédération des communautés francophones et acadienne du Canada
I would like to go back to what Ms. Kenny said about parents. Earlier we told you about accessibility and the fact that we are probably at maximum capacity in a number of places right now. We must ensure that it is not a frustrating experience for parents to register their children in immersion. I think that would help a lot.
4:15 p.m.
Conservative
4:15 p.m.
Conservative
Royal Galipeau Conservative Ottawa—Orléans, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
As I have done in previous meetings, I would first like to congratulate Mr. Dion for the quality of his questions. They are very penetrating. That is probably as a result of his institutional knowledge of this matter.
I have also listened to the answers and I am not satisfied with them. You are asking the federal government to provide significant funding, but that matter is governed by section 93 of the Constitution Act, 1867.
Unless I have fallen asleep, I do not believe these matters fall under federal jurisdiction. So I imagine that federal involvement in the field, as noble as it might be, would meet with all kinds of resistence among some, if not all, provinces. The question I therefore have for you is this: have you discussed the matter with the Council of Ministers of Education?
4:15 p.m.
Executive Director, Canadian Association of Second Language Teachers
What exactly?
We are in contact with the French-language services division and, on certain matters, with the councils of ministers. However, taking the matter of second-language instruction to the Council of Ministers of Education requires a collective will, as I said earlier. Every minister must be in favour of discussing the matter. It takes a quite monumental amount of work for an association to put an issue concerning a second language or anything else on the agenda.