Official Languages Committee on March 12th, 2015

[Robert Therrien]

There has been a clear decrease in the number of people from different provinces who have gone to western Canada. I don't have all the numbers with me, but it seems to me that 700 people arrived in Saskatchewan in 2012. However, I would be surprised if we met with 50 of them.

Again, this comes back to the capacity of a francophone organization in a minority situation to provide services to all citizens. We also need to meet with these people who are in our communities. We don't know them, and vice versa. For the community associations in Regina and Saskatoon, which are the two largest cities in the province, only two individuals have been hired to take care of overall development. By this I mean cultural development and assistance related to health and education services.

As for the research capacity, it is clear that we don't have the means to do the same thing as the other stakeholders. As in any network, we help each other but, at the same time, we have to meet certain requirements of our funders. Often, we cannot get out of this context to provide certain services. As for whether we can reach people who come to our province, I would say that we lack the opportunities to do so.

For a few years, we went to Quebec to recruit with representatives from Saskatchewan. We were there to act as a liaison because they couldn't provide the service in French. We weren't the ones who paid for it; it was officials in Saskatchewan who wanted help. This was the first time that they went. It was a little different for them. Often, provinces like Saskatchewan, with the exception of Quebec, don't have the capacity and don't have the immediate reflex to invite us as stakeholders into the region to participate in meetings like this.

When it comes to recruitment, there are costs associated with it, such as air travel and accommodation. We didn't have the capacity to do these things. If we are there from the beginning to pair employees and employers, there would be a better chance for us to be able to integrate them into the community. If we aren't with them from the start, we risk having them arrive here and be completely outside the community. Too often, we hear people say that they have been in Regina for 10 years and didn't know that there was a francophone community there.

They come to Saskatchewan to work and they integrate. Sometimes they wonder if there really are francophones in the region. I'm surprised every time I visit Quebec City, Montreal or other regions—and I'm there often—and people ask me if I'm francophone. When I tell them I am, they ask me how long I've been in Saskatchewan. I tell them that I was born in Saskatchewan, and people are astonished that I speak French.

People who come mainly from east of Quebec and certain other regions of Canada don't know that there's a francophone minority in the other communities. Because of that, they will not have the normal reflex to learn about whether there are francophones.

[The Chair, Conservative, Michael Chong]

Thank you.

Ms. St-Denis, you may go ahead.

[Lise St-Denis, Liberal, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

Mr. LeVasseur, one of your principles rather surprised me, the one calling for a greater number of francophones in Ontario in order to achieve a balance between the francophone and anglophone communities.

You met with CIC officials this week. Is the department—the government, actually—willing to increase the number of French speakers in the country?

[Gilles LeVasseur]

The department does seem to have that desire. I recommended a target of 10%, but the department's target is 5%.

The problem is that the 5% target hasn't been reached. If you take into account integration, assimilation and language abandonment, the figure drops to below 2%. We have to increase the percentage, but it will take a genuine commitment on the department's part. That is the necessary direction, but also necessary is the political will to make it happen and to explore the way of going about it.

It can't be done in the space of a year. The public service is a machine, a system. It has to be a step-by-step process, and it will take time. If, however, it is among the objectives set out in part III of the budget, we can get there, but it has to be clearly stated.

[Lise St-Denis, Liberal, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

You also said that an integration model was necessary.

[Gilles LeVasseur]

Yes.

[Lise St-Denis, Liberal, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

I'd like to know where municipalities stand on the problems affecting francophones. Do they consider the needs of francophones or completely disregard them?

[Gilles LeVasseur]

From what we've observed in Ontario, and a number of regions across the country, I would say that it isn't a priority for municipalities. The development of official language minority communities doesn't enter into their mandate unless the French-speaking minority in the municipality has a significant demographic weight. That's when it becomes part of city council's mandate.

Take the City of Ottawa, for example. It doesn't have the political will or intention to address that issue. The city's position is that its focus is on services, not the integration of immigrants or newcomers.

[Lise St-Denis, Liberal, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

You said newcomers have a very hard time identifying with Canadian culture. Would it be worthwhile to create programs promoting the value of French, for instance, programs showcasing Métis and francophone history prior to Confederation, history that newcomers would learn about?

As everyone knows, the Supreme Court is considering yet another matter involving the rights of minority communities, in relation to Saskatchewan's failure to respect the rights of francophones before Confederation. It was even a century before school boards were established.

Could this kind of situation help promote French culture and give newcomers a better understanding of Canadians' dual francophone-anglophone identity?

That question is for Mr. Therrien, as well.

[Robert Therrien]

I would say that, in order for someone to integrate into one of Canada's official language minority communities, a considerable amount of effort is needed when it comes to the history component.

In response to your first question, I would say that, because of our democratic system, some communities are more interested than others in the French fact. But it's a very small number. It isn't municipalities' first concern.

What's more, Canada's immigration situation is still evolving. According to projections for the next few years, the number of immigrants needed to replenish the workforce and offset the effects of the aging population is only going to increase.

As for your question on history, I don't think the only thing we need to do is teach immigrants about our history. We would also benefit from learning about their history in order to better understand them. The integration and culture of these newcomers needs to be addressed, be it from a work or daily life standpoint. We, as communities, should be aware of those needs. Furthermore, it's a way for us to get to know each other better and it improves how we interact.

It's a bit like marriage. Two people meet and think they know each other really well, but after a few years, they realize they don't know each other quite as well as they had thought. The process hinges on mutual respect.

As for the importance of francophones' history, I hail from southern Saskatchewan. Only a few years before I was born, the Ku Klux Klan had a very strong hold in our area. I think it's important for francophones to know those kinds of things and for newcomers to know about our history.

That said, I think it's important for us to know one another's history so that we can live together as a people who share a language and the French fact, thus contributing to the country's development.

[Lise St-Denis, Liberal, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

We've been told that oil companies in your province bring in significant numbers of French-speaking workers.

Do they contribute at all to the development of francophone communities?

[Robert Therrien]

Their involvement is really quite limited. The workers I mentioned, who work in the oil industry, are, in some cases, temporary workers, but they are also workers who come from other parts of the country. We don't see them.

When someone working in the oil industry doesn't live in a large urban centre or work in administration, for instance, they are out in the field in rural communities, which are often quite small.

No doubt, you know that Saskatchewan's population has risen over the past few years. But that population is very spread out across the province. The community clearly doesn't have the resources to reach out to those people and show them that a francophone community exists and welcomes their involvement.

In the bigger cities, some people are involved in the community, and that involvement is on the rise. In rural communities, however, that involvement is significantly lacking.

[The Chair, Conservative, Michael Chong]

Very good. Thank you.

[Lise St-Denis, Liberal, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

The government says it doesn't have money, but the oil companies have a lot of money. The communities could approach them for help.

[The Chair, Conservative, Michael Chong]

Fine. Thank you, Ms. St-Denis.

Mr. Chisu, you may go ahead.

[Corneliu Chisu, Conservative, Pickering—Scarborough East, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I'm going to ask my questions in English, Canada's other official language.

I am an immigrant to this country. I note that you mentioned, Professor LeVasseur, that the language survives and develops because it is economically viable. As soon as a language is no longer economically viable, people will move to another language.

Are you observing that provinces in Canada with stronger economies are receiving more francophone immigrants?

[Gilles LeVasseur]

What we have noticed in the past years is that the more the population is able to communicate in both official languages, the more the economic performance has been increased because of mobility, interactions, and an increase in exchange. We have noticed that.

But also, those who do have the capacity to express themselves in both official languages also have more levels of education and are performing at a higher level in different organizations. They have the chance to aspire to more national bodies or associations because of the mobility they have in terms of linguistic capacity.

[Corneliu Chisu, Conservative, Pickering—Scarborough East, ON]

I am an immigrant from Europe, and in Europe usually we speak three or four languages. Many countries in Europe are members of la Francophonie, including countries that don't have anything to do with the French language, such as Bulgaria or those that are not of Latin origin.

But let's say that they are coming to Canada, and I think their integration in Canada is not that difficult because we are a very diverse and a very accommodating country. I am speaking from my own experience, but basically I think that the government—and it doesn't matter which colour it is and so on—performs quite well in advising the immigrants and trying to integrate them into our society. If you look just at Toronto, there are 170 languages spoken and they are living in the best harmony that you could imagine in the world, if you look at how the world is today.

I have a question for you. You mentioned that francophone immigrants do not necessarily share the identity of the community they move to, despite their speaking French. What do you mean by that?

[Gilles LeVasseur]

I'm from Toronto. I was born in North York and grew up in Ontario. Fifty years ago it was very difficult to find your way to get basic services from private or public institutions in Ontario. There was this ethics of language that existed at the time, which has totally transformed itself over the last 50 years.

We are in a battle of survival, a battle of identity, and a battle to define ourselves. That accentuated itself when the Quebeckers no longer were French Canadians, but only became Quebeckers. I had to redefine myself as a Franco-Ontarian, as a Franco-Albertan, as a Fransaskois. We had to redefine ourselves. It is always a struggle to reinvent yourself in a new environment.

The challenge we faced was one of fighting to have equality. That does not mean that we wanted everything in both official languages on every front, but to be able to perform in the society and with public institutions in the choice we wished to have in terms of language.

When you're an immigrant your battle is your own personal survival. It's your own identity. It's your own need to make a better life and to make sure your kids have a better life. You do not necessarily participate in the same struggle to progress in terms of a battle of the language versus a battle of a good life, a more enjoyable life, and a quality of life for your kids. They may share the same fundamental linguistic capacity to communicate, but they don't have that history and that struggle to get where we are today.

[Corneliu Chisu, Conservative, Pickering—Scarborough East, ON]

I want to mention that in my riding, which is east Toronto, in recent years I found two French schools. One is a Catholic French school, not French immersion, and another is a French public school up to grade 12. It is a collegiate. I see that there is an interest.

In the Pickering and Scarborough areas they are mostly immigrants, but there is a great interest in the French language. I can tell you that the fact that we are bilingual and that we have two official languages is an advantage and not a deterrence. People understand this, at least in my area.

[Robert Therrien]

I would like to comment on one of the questions you posed about the provincial government and the number of francophones coming in.

We have seen the numbers increase, but we have not seen them increase at the same pace as the whole. We're still below the percentage of francophones that there are in the province. Our net demographic situation is still worsening because there are not enough coming in.

One of the things I'd like to point out is in terms of the economy. We are part of the RDÉE Canada network. There was a study done in partnership with the Conference Board of Canada that was released about a year and a half ago. It demonstrated the added value in terms of economic output of having the French language, and we talked about all the different countries in the world where French is a first language. The study demonstrated the net value and the net economic advantage of having French as an additional language.

I think that on a Canadian front we are a bilingual country, but we haven't put enough emphasis on that in the past and looked at the economic benefit of the francophone community in that way.

[The Chair, Conservative, Michael Chong]

Okay, thank you very much.

It is now over to Mr. Daniel.

[Joe Daniel, Conservative, Don Valley East, ON]

I think it was Mr. Leung.

[The Chair, Conservative, Michael Chong]

Mr. Leung, you may go ahead.

[Chungsen Leung, Conservative, Willowdale, ON]

Thank you, Joe, for letting me speak.

Let me ask a question. I'm also an immigrant to this country, and prior to coming to Canada, I had to deal with three other foreign languages in the places where I lived and studied. What I noticed in my prior experience is that learning a language is driven mainly by economic, cultural, and social necessity. To politically force a language onto a learner is perhaps not the most successful model. However, I realize that in a bilingual country, it is out of national heritage or national prestige that we need to do this.

I definitely agree that a multiple language capability is a step towards better job prospects or even a better clarity of mind in terms of how one deals with the world. But in our increasingly internationalized and smaller world, where our trading partners are also in Latin America, Asia, the Middle East, and other parts of the world that are not English or French speaking, what is your opinion of adding third languages to improve Canada's ability to be a trading nation internationally?

I'd like to hear your comments on that.