Official Languages Committee on May 12th, 2015

[Lise St-Denis, Liberal, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

I am talking about the government in general.

[Graham Fraser]

I did notice one thing. The current government has renewed the previous government's action plan to produce a roadmap that was again renewed. this program is now more focused on education, immigration and support for communities. This represents a significant commitment on the part of the government.

With regard to the departments and their commitment to the delivery of services, language of work or positive measures, that depends on the department. I have found that when the leaders show a desire to succeed, results follow.

Often, a deputy minister arrives in a department and discovers that our assessment of that department is negative. He then decides that that has to change. He comes up with an action plan to make changes and we see the results. If the deputy minister, the minister or both convey to employees that this is an important value for the department, there is an immediate change.

This also works the other way. If the message conveyed is that this is not very important, it is not a priority and that there are other things that are more important, then there is an almost immediate disengagement.

[Lise St-Denis, Liberal, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

Do you have some power in that regard, apart from submitting a report? As we know, a report shows that you support a number of things, but do you have a slightly broader and substantial power in this area?

[Graham Fraser]

I do not have the power to impose penalties, but I hope I have some influence. The discussion focuses on how to get results and the best strategy to follow.

I think I have used all the tools at my disposal, whether in face-to-face conversations with deputy ministers or discussions with the departments' executive committee, or still through legal action in the courts. Each case is different and requires a strategic analysis to find the best way to get there, but I do not have the power to impose fines, for example.

[Lise St-Denis, Liberal, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

I will ask you a specific question, since you want to bring this up.

The government has decided to transfer 34 federal employees in my riding to Miramichi. We know that Miramichi is an English-speaking town. Everyone knows that federal jobs are good jobs. We are taking federal jobs away from a community already facing many financial and employment difficulties to send them elsewhere. Is this not a sign of a certain who-cares attitude? The government said this was happening because it wanted to renew the file, gather the problems together in one place and all of that.

In my riding, francophones represent 99.5% of the population, but the government thinks that it is not a big deal to take very specialized officials and encourage them to leave their French-speaking world. They could be given the choice of going to Miramichi. The government says that it will meet with these employees and maybe find them a job, but not in their community. It could be anywhere else.

What do you think of the government's attitude towards francophone communities?

[Graham Fraser]

This is always a decision that makes it more difficult to deliver services, hire francophone employees and retain a certain level of francophones. The same thing happened during the transfer of the Canadian Tourism Commission to Vancouver. Regarding the transfer of employees in Miramichi, this is not just about people in your riding—

[Lise St-Denis, Liberal, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

It happens pretty much everywhere.

[Graham Fraser]

There are also employees in Ottawa and Gatineau who are affected and who are facing that decision, namely whether to relocate or seek other employment in the area.

This is part of a policy. There is a regional investment policy and a regional restructuring policy.

The problem that occurs when a department undergoes regional restructuring is the following. Employees who until then had the right to work in French and who reported to French-speaking supervisors start reporting to a supervisor in a region that is not designated bilingual. The right of these employees to work in French becomes more complicated and theoretical. There are departments where this restructuring has caused a real problem in terms of respecting the right to work in French.

[The Chair, Conservative, Michael Chong]

Thank you.

Mr. Daniel, you have the floor.

[Joe Daniel, Conservative, Don Valley East, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Commissioner, for being here with your team. It's always good to see you here, obviously to put you in the hot seat a little bit.

In your report, you mention that only 2% of immigrants coming to settle in provinces other than Quebec speak French as their official language. You go on to say that this is too low to ensure the vitality of French-speaking communities outside of Quebec. I would fully agree with you on that.

One of the things that concerns me, as an immigrant myself, and one the reasons that I and many other immigrants have come here is jobs, prosperity, and moving things forward. In many of these communities, they don't have the businesses to be able to do that. In fact, we've had witnesses here who have told us that many of the younger French-speaking people have to leave for education and that they don't generally come back, because there aren't jobs there.

Can you comment and tell me your feelings on that and how that impacts the immigration status of getting more people in?

[Graham Fraser]

I think it depends very definitely on the region that you're talking about. If you're talking about Saskatchewan and Alberta where employment is booming, or has been booming—we don't know what the latest employment results are going to be—that's one thing. If you're talking about immigration to the Acadian peninsula, that's something different. It is a continuing challenge to attract immigrants to certain provinces. Immigrants usually do a certain amount of due diligence on the economic health of the regions they chose to move to.

I think one of the things that we have observed, which is reflected in our recommendations, is that it's much easier for immigrants who come from francophone countries and who do not necessarily have French as their mother tongue but speak it as their first official language. I'm thinking of people who come from Senegal and their mother tongue would be Wolof or people who come from the Maghreb and their mother tongue would be Arabic.

Unless the organizations that are welcoming those people have been made aware of the institutions that exist in the French-language communities that can welcome those people and help their adaptation to the community, they're going to be directed to English-language institutions.

I visited a community centre in Hamilton and people in the francophone community centre said that they run into immigrants quite regularly who have been here for a couple of years and say, if we'd only known that there was a French-language school, if we had only known that your clinic offers services in French, we would have joined but our kids have now been in school for two years, they like their teachers, we like our doctor. Unless those people are informed before their departure, and accompanied better when they arrive, and supported by minority language communities, then they and the community lose out.

There are certainly some communities, francophone and anglophone, in which the challenge is one of exodus. But you'd be surprised at the number of highly creative immigrants to Canada who are doing artistic and creative and imaginative and innovative work in communities where you would not thing there were immigrants at all.

When I was in Métis-sur-Mer, just down river from Rimouski, I had a conversation with a group of artists, a significant number of whom were immigrants and had chosen to move to this beautiful part of Quebec and were being supported by English-language artistic community organizations that helped their integration into Quebec society as a whole.

[Joe Daniel, Conservative, Don Valley East, ON]

Okay, thank you.

We've also had interesting information from one of the councillors from Moncton, I believe, who came here. They are clearly going out in a very proactive way to set up francophone-related businesses to create an environment for all of that. They are performing way above the average in attracting francophone people, etc.

Why can't that model be expanded to some of these other communities so they can generate revenue? As I said, immigrants generally come here for economic benefit. They want jobs whatever the field is, whether it's the arts, engineering, or whatever. If there aren't those jobs there, they're not going to stay there. Right?

[Graham Fraser]

Absolutely.

I think it is at discussions like this, discussions that I hope our studies and reports can foster, that will lead to a better understanding of best practices. You mentioned Moncton. I often talk about Winnipeg where there was also a very active process welcoming immigrants and refugees at the airport, accompanying them to temporary housing, registering their children at school, finding them francophone medical facilities, and also providing them with English lessons, but in the context of a francophone organization, because there was a real recognition that if they're going to be working in Winnipeg, they're going to need English.

I think that often the most creative solutions to problems are found in community organizations, but often the challenge is to ensure that those best practices are shared and understood across the country.

[The Chair, Conservative, Michael Chong]

Thank you, Mr. Fraser.

Mr. Chisu.

[Corneliu Chisu, Conservative, Pickering—Scarborough East, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you very much for coming in front of us again.

I was really interested in your report. You are basing the report, as you said, on the concerns you have about anglophone immigration into Quebec and francophone immigration outside of Quebec. Could you tell us what your concerns are based on?

Following that I will continue with another question expressing my concerns.

[Graham Fraser]

My concern, in a nutshell, is that if you average across the country, francophones outside Quebec represent 4% of the population and are only receiving and welcoming 2% of the immigrants, and 98% of the immigrants are joining the English-speaking majority. At that rate it will be very difficult for francophone communities to reproduce themselves and to thrive and prosper.

It is an unfortunate reality, and this speaks to another piece of legislation that I talked to earlier in another committee. I think it is unfortunate that the decision on the level of services designated for communities is based on percentages, because if a francophone community or an anglophone community in Quebec drops below 5%, it loses the same level of services it had previously. That can be damaging, and I think it is damaging to the vitality of that community. This is one of the reasons why I'm supporting the idea of using other indices of vitality rather than percentages, because if you use percentages you're allowing the rate of growth of the majority to define the services and the rights of the minority. I don't think that's appropriate or fair.

[Corneliu Chisu, Conservative, Pickering—Scarborough East, ON]

As you know, this issue is also connected with jobs and exercising your profession. I am telling you this from my own experience. I'm a licensed professional engineer in the Province of Ontario. To be licensed in the Province of Quebec, I must pass the language exam, not vice versa.

[Graham Fraser]

Yes.

[Corneliu Chisu, Conservative, Pickering—Scarborough East, ON]

If I go into an anglo community in the province of Quebec, I will not be able to exercise my profession until I've passed the French examination.

It's the same thing, but in a much different way in the Province of Ontario, where the language is not so important. Of course, you need to be able to converse in English, but the level of conversation in French is a much higher requirement in the Province of Quebec than English in the Province of Ontario.

That is also true around the country.

Speaking about interprovincial barriers that affect the minority linguistic community in this way, if you are looking at not only engineering but also at other trades and professions that are regulated provincially, I think they are not just looking at Immigration Canada and how they can increase the 2% of services. I say this because these are professions. If you are not able to exercise your profession, then you will go to where you will be able to work in your profession. If it is difficult to exercise your profession in any of the provinces, even in one in which you would like to establish yourself, like the Province of Ontario, or Quebec if you are a francophone, you will have a problem with that.

I think that speaking with a professional association, in health or in nursing, it is important to contribute to the vitality of the minority languages. I don't know if you have ever thought about that.

[Graham Fraser]

Only insofar as I have looked at some of the figures that show that a high proportion of health providers in Ontario are coming from francophone immigrants. I don't dare to try to quote you a figure off the top of my head, but francophone immigrants are making a significant contribution to the provision of health care, in French, in Ontario.

In terms of those interprovincial barriers, you're right. Another problem that the English community faces in Quebec—and I am fully cognizant of this reality and am not criticizing this or recommending that it be changed—is that anglophone immigrants who move to Quebec are not going to be able to send their children to English school. That is a similar kind of obstacle to the one that you represented, and to the extent that schools are important institutions for the minority language communities, that is a challenge.

[The Chair, Conservative, Michael Chong]

Okay, thank you.

Mr. Gravelle.

[Claude Gravelle, NDP, Nickel Belt, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I would also like to thank the witnesses for appearing before us today.

My first question is about the cuts that were made to CBC/Radio-Canada. In my town, Sudbury, seven or nine French-speaking employees—I do not know the exact number—were laid off, while on the English side, only one person was thanked for his services. Personally, I do not find it fair that francophones are losing so many jobs. I believe the broadcaster can no longer provide the service that francophones are used to. Many francophones live in northern Ontario. For them, the only radio station that is available in French is the Radio-Canada station.

Do you think it would be appropriate to verify which services Radio-Canada provides in northern Ontario?

[Graham Fraser]

That is a very interesting idea. For a long time now, I have been talking about the importance of establishing stable and long-term funding for CBC/Radio-Canada. I think it was last year that I pointed out that, of 18 public broadcasters in the developed world, Radio-Canada ranked sixteenth when it came to funding. In my view, the fact that hockey games are no longer broadcast on CBC/Radio-Canada has dealt a huge blow to the financing of this institution.

We went to court to demand that the CBEF Windsor programming be maintained, and we were successful. The Federal Court stayed part of its decision before the licence renewal by the CRTC. The latter took up our licence renewal arguments with respect to CBEF Windsor. The other issue was whether we had jurisdiction over CBC/Radio-Canada. A Federal Court judge said that we had indeed shared jurisdiction. We filed an appeal to the Federal Court of Appeal, and I can assure you that this will end before the Supreme Court. Indeed, the party that is not successful before the Federal Court of Appeal will file an appeal to the Supreme Court.

It would be fascinating to do such a verification but before the legal process has determined whether I have or have not jurisdiction over CBC/Radio-Canada, I cannot audit this organization. This matter is currently before the courts.

[Claude Gravelle, NDP, Nickel Belt, ON]

In other words, we have to fight to be able to speak our official language, namely French, across the country.

[Graham Fraser]

That is the fate of any minority: to fight for recognition and equal status. The most difficult words in the Official Languages Act are “the equality of status and use of English and French”.