Official Languages Committee on Feb. 7th, 2019

[Emmanuella Lambropoulos]

This was a commitment that was made under the previous government. Is that correct?

[George Zegarac]

It was a commitment under the previous government, but it didn't have sustainable funding because of our fiscal situation.

[Emmanuella Lambropoulos]

How much time do I have left, Mr. Chair?

[The Chair, Liberal, Denis Paradis]

You have 30 seconds left.

[Emmanuella Lambropoulos]

I'm okay. Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Denis Paradis]

Thank you, Ms. Lambropoulos.

I'll now give the floor to Ms. Boucher.

[Sylvie Boucher, Conservative, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Good afternoon. I want to welcome both of you. I'm very happy that you're here today. I'm actually not entirely happy, because we may be putting you in a somewhat special situation. However, the members on our side and all the committee members really want to understand what happened in Ontario.

My name is Sylvie Boucher, and I'm the member for Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d'Orléans—Charlevoix. Unfortunately, the whole saga surrounding the Université de l'Ontario français has created a language crisis, not only in Ontario, but across the country.

Did you warn your ministers about the repercussions of the announcements resulting from this type of decision? Did you help them understand the sensitivity of the French language issue? Although we aren't a minority in Quebec and this issue is more directly related to my friend on the other side, it affects all francophones, wherever they live in Canada. Were you aware that the issue could lead to a crisis of this nature?

Did you contact the interim president or the UOF's board of governors prior to the public announcement of the project's cancellation? Did anyone in the office call the board or the minister? Did you contact the departments or the board of governors?

When the issue concerns language, in any part of the country, it's a little dangerous.

My question is for the two witnesses.

[Marie-Lison Fougère]

I want to make one point before I give the floor to my colleague. To some extent, it will help me answer Mr. Samson's question.

A public servant's responsibility is really to serve the government in power and to do so with integrity. In this regard, as a public servant, when I'm asked for my point of view, I paint a complete picture and explain the pros and cons. In the case of francophone affairs, all decisions are made based on their impact and the community's perception. I do so with integrity and transparency. I take into account what this may mean, based on my responsibilities, and I share it.

Ultimately, as all elected officials know, decisions are made by the government through the cabinet. I think that we need to keep this in mind.

[Sylvie Boucher, Conservative, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

I understand.

[George Zegarac]

I would just add that this decision was communicated through the fall economic statement. Like the budgetary decisions, those decisions are not shared in advance. As soon as we became aware, through the fall economic statement, of the communication on the decision, we immediately contacted the chair and shared the government's decision. We had meetings subsequent to that with her and the president of the university.

[Sylvie Boucher, Conservative, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

In other words, you never assessed what this could mean for francophones. You made an economic statement. The French language is very fragile everywhere, and the same is true for the English language in Quebec. Therefore, no assessment was conducted.

The francophonie issue is very emotional. As a member of the opposition, I went to the Franco-Ontarian protest with my friends and I made a speech.

I want you to know that I'm fully aware that we, the politicians, are responsible for the final signature.

Given what we've experienced so far, I hope that, when the ministers or departments make decisions, they'll be more sensitive to the language issue. It's a very emotional issue. We never want to lose certain acquired rights again.

If I were to provide some political advice or if I were also a minister, like Mr. Samson, I would ask my deputy ministers to show the same sensitivity as I do and to keep me informed of what's happening. This degenerated a bit, and unfortunately, we paid the price.

[The Chair, Liberal, Denis Paradis]

Thank you, Ms. Boucher. You've just appointed Mr. Samson minister.

[Sylvie Boucher, Conservative, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

I appoint him minister of Status of Women.

[Voices]

Oh, oh!

[Darrell Samson, Liberal, Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS]

Let the Prime Minister know.

[The Chair, Liberal, Denis Paradis]

Thank you, Ms. Boucher.

I'll now give the floor to Ms. Fortier.

[Mona Fortier, Ottawa—Vanier, Lib.]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to thank the witnesses for being here today.

I care deeply about this issue, and so do my constituents. This is an important issue not only for Ontario's francophone population, but also for the entire population of Ontario.

We often talk about the Université de l'Ontario français, but I want to remind everyone that the university isn't only for francophones in Ontario, but for all francophones. There are even francophiles around the world who want to participate in this university project.

I want us to see this university as an important opportunity for Ontario to make a positive investment in post-secondary education. The value added can benefit everyone, not only in Ontario, but across the country. We're very concerned about this issue, which is why we're currently studying it.

Mr. Zegarac, you talked about the possibility of discussions between the federal and provincial governments, and I want to go back to that. Do you have a mandate to work and negotiate with the federal government as part of bilateral agreements on education and French-language education?

[George Zegarac]

We've actually expressed our concerns through the Council of Ministers of Education, Canada, collectively, around frozen funding for over a decade.

[Mona Fortier]

Do you have the mandate to negotiate with and present projects to the federal government? Do you have the authority to do so?

[George Zegarac]

As my colleague has said, we have the opportunity to implement the direction of the government. If the government wants to pursue that discussion, we would bring that request back. I'm hearing that from a number of people—

[Mona Fortier]

So you have the authority to present a project to the federal government that comes from your minister.

[George Zegarac]

The situation right now, as the government has said, is that they've paused it. There's no discussion under way until they have a solution to their economic situation. Having conversations, without having a solution and understanding the final decisions the government is making on a number of files in the future, puts us in a difficult position to have a dialogue, but we can raise that and bring it back, if there's a submission.

[Mona Fortier]

Maybe I misunderstood. I thought that I heard you say that you hadn't received an invitation to hold this discussion. Perhaps you didn't ask the federal government the question.

I just want to remind the committee members that the Honourable Caroline Mulroney received a letter from Minister Joly, on January 13, 2019, informing her that Minister Joly was ready to have a conversation about the university project. Minister Joly also invited the Ontario government to submit a project to the federal government. The invitation to hold a discussion was issued.

We must focus on the fact that both governments can work together on this project, but also on other post-secondary education projects in French Ontario. The government is open to this.

My next question concerns the French Language Services Commissioner of Ontario.

Ms. Fougère, I may have misunderstood your comments, but I thought that the Ontario Ministry of Francophone Affairs was responsible for the French Language Services Act, which governs the Office of the French Language Services Commissioner of Ontario.

I also thought that the deputy ombudsman position created did not necessarily correspond to the commissioner position. This would constitute a deputy ombudsman position under the banner of the ombudsman, and not a transfer of the commissioner's position.

[Marie-Lison Fougère]

The commissioner's authorities are based on the French Language Services Act. The commissioner's role is to monitor the application of the act. However, the commissioner's position—this was also the case in the old system—isn't under the aegis of the Ontario Ministry of Francophone Affairs.

As in the case of the auditor general or ombudsman, the commissioner is an independent officer of the Legislative Assembly of Ontario. As such, the position falls under the Legislative Assembly. I know that this can be confusing. At the legislative level, the commissioner obtains a mandate from the French Language Services Act. However, as a senior public servant, the commissioner reports to the Legislative Assembly of Ontario.

Regarding the transfer of the commissioner position, the final version of Bill 57 of the Legislative Assembly of Ontario, which amended certain statutes, clearly states that the French Language Services Commissioner remains a commissioner position, but under the auspices of the Office of the Ombudsman. As a result, the commissioner's related authorities remain the same.

[Mona Fortier]

Will the commissioner alone make decisions on budgets and priorities, or will the ombudsman have this role?