Official Languages Committee on Feb. 7th, 2019

[The Chair, Liberal, Denis Paradis]

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(3), we are continuing our study on the state of Canada’s francophonie.

This morning, we are pleased to have with us, from the Government of Ontario, Marie-Lison Fougère, Deputy Minister in the Ministry of Seniors and Accessibility, and Associate Deputy Minister for Francophone Affairs, and George Zegarac, Deputy Minister in the Ministry of Training, Colleges and Universities.

Welcome, Ms. Fougère and Mr. Zegarac. You are joined by Mr. McPherson, who is not here to testify but to assist you. I just wanted to let the committee members know about that.

As you already know, witnesses appearing before our committee enjoy parliamentary privilege and are therefore protected.

We are continuing our study on the state of official languages in the country and we have to report to the House of Commons. Before completing the study, with a specific emphasis on the language crisis in Ontario, as we describe it here, we wanted to have this dialogue with you. We want it to be as cordial as possible in order to find out how we can improve the report that we have to table in the House of Commons shortly.

We have two hours together, during which time we will be able to discuss the subject. The comments and questions are intended to move forward the whole area of language issues all over Canada.

As is our practice here, you will each have 10 minutes to give a presentation and then we will move to a question and answer period with the members of the committee.

Let us start with you, Mr. Zegarac.

[George Zegarac, Deputy Minister, Ministry of Training, Colleges and Universities, Government of Ontario]

Thank you very much.

I thank the chair and the members for the opportunity to make my opening remarks.

My name is George Zegarac. I was appointed the deputy minister of training, colleges and universities on June 29, 2018. Before I provide some context to the issue, I'd like to share a bit of my background with regard to my experience in the Ontario public service, where I've worked for over 32 years.

Over the last 10 years, in addition to my current portfolio, I've served as the deputy minister for these ministries: infrastructure; education; children and youth services; and agriculture, food and rural affairs. In my lengthy public service career, I've served all the political parties and have overseen files of vital importance to Ontarians, including programs and services that directly benefit Ontario's francophone community.

I will share with you a bit about my current ministry, the Ministry of Training, Colleges and Universities. The ministry is responsible for Ontario's post-secondary education and employment and training systems. The ministry provides operating and capital funding to publicly assisted colleges and universities, establishes provincial objectives for the use of those public funds and designs frameworks for achieving these objectives.

The ministry also ensures that high-quality post-secondary education is accessible to all qualified candidates through tuition regulation, student assistance, targeted funding and accountability mechanisms. In particular, the French-language services division within the ministry ensures high-quality post-secondary education for Ontario's francophone students.

In the area of workforce development, the ministry develops policy directions for adult education and labour market training. The ministry also manages and funds provincial employment training programs and services, including adult literacy and basic skills, and undertakes labour market research and planning.

I've been privileged to work on the entire continuum of education from day care through to post-secondary education. In the Ministry of Education, initially as the assistant deputy minister and then as the deputy minister, I supported the creation of an independent Télévision française de l'Ontario, or TFO. This included developing a collaborative and mutually respectful relationship with TFO over a period of several years.

During my time at the Ministry of Education, and together with the community, we have overseen the creation of a number of French-language schools across the province and have worked with staff to tailor programs and services to francophone students. This includes various programs such as specialist high skills majors and dual credit recognition, for example. These programs have changed the experience of students in schools across the province and have helped them with their transition to post-secondary education or to the labour market. I was also the deputy minister at a time when French as a second language programs expanded substantially to meet the needs of students and parents who were increasingly interested in French-language instruction.

Through base funding investments and collaboration with the francophone community, Ontario now has almost 500 French-language schools and close to 110,000 francophone students. French immersion has grown to more than 200,000 students, and French-language funding has grown to $1 billion. These funding investments continue to support and serve the francophone community today.

In my current role as deputy minister of training, colleges and universities, we are guided by Ontario's 620,000 francophones, with over 200,000 francophones living in central and southwestern Ontario. The Ontario government continues to work with the francophone community to make it easier for French-speaking Ontarians to access high-quality post-secondary education. More than 22,000 students attend post-secondary institutions, with close to 17,000 attending university and more than 5,500 attending two French-language colleges, La Cité and Collège Boréal.

This history of collaboration has resulted in 10 post-secondary institutions that provide over 300 French-language or bilingual programs in Ontario colleges and universities, including the University of Ottawa, Laurentian University, Collège Boréal, La Cité, York University's Collège universitaire Glendon, and L'Université de Hearst and its four associated affiliates.

Examples of Ontario's rich and diverse French-language post-secondary programs include bachelor's degrees in nursing, civil law and criminal law, nutritional science, social work, environmental studies, business administration, economics, mathematics and international studies, to name just a few.

In addition, Ontario post-secondary institutions also offer diplomas in domains such as digital and information technology, public relations, civil engineering, electrical engineering, architecture, forestry, mining and agriculture.

The government also committed recently to investing in post-secondary francophone education in Ontario by providing $15 million to Collège Boréal for its Toronto campus. The ministry continues to support models of post-secondary education that meet the needs of francophone students and the francophone community, as well as Ontario's business community in the evolving job market.

I'd like to now provide an overview of the actions the Ontario government has taken over the years to advance the French-language university in Ontario. In April of 2011, the ministry established an expert panel to provide advice on the most efficient models to build French-language post-secondary capacity in the central and southwest regions. One of the expert panel's recommendations was for government to support the establishment of post-secondary institutions designated under the French Language Services Act.

In 2014, the ministry proceeded to develop and implement an action plan to address the expert panel's and the commissioner's recommendations. The government plan included establishing an advisory committee on French-language post-secondary education; issuing a request for proposals to expand French-language university and college programming; and providing support to Glendon College—part of York University—to explore enhanced governance for and by francophones at York University, located in Toronto's north end.

The French-language advisory committee was established in February of 2014. In March of 2016, a report by the advisory committee on French-language post-secondary education in central-southwest Ontario recommended the creation of a university governed by and for francophones. In response to this, a planning board was created in June of 2016, comprising a chair and six board members. A student interest and market demand study was commissioned, and in May of 2017, the ministry received the study, by R.A. Malatest and Associates Ltd., which supported the creation of a French-language university.

The planning board's report was finalized in July of 2017. The planning board recommended that a French-language university begin classes in September 2020. The Université de l'Ontario français Act, 2017, came into force on April 9, 2018. The first board of governors of the Université de l'Ontario français was also appointed on April 9, 2018, via a minister's regulation.

On November 15, 2018, the government announced in the “2018 Ontario Economic Outlook and Fiscal Review” that, due to fiscal concerns, funding for the Université de l'Ontario français would not proceed at this time. The government has also indicated that the French-language university could be reconsidered once the fiscal position of the province has improved. The board of governors is able to access private and public funding from other entities while the project is on pause.

At this time, the Université de l'Ontario français Act, 2017, remains in force; the board of governors remains in place, as specified in the regulation; and the interim president's appointment continues. The government has no plans at this time to revoke or amend legislation under the Université de l'Ontario français Act, 2017. The government has indicated it is committed to high-quality French-language post-secondary education, with many French-language programs available at universities and colleges in Ontario to provide francophones with the educational opportunities they need to succeed.

The government has indicated that it will continue to support post-secondary French-language colleges and bilingual universities that are efficient and cost-effective and also benefit francophone students.

Thank you for the opportunity to share with you the opening remarks. With the chair's permission, I will pass the floor to my colleague.

[The Chair, Liberal, Denis Paradis]

Thank you very much, Mr. Zegarac.

We now move to Ms. Fougère’s presentation.

Ms. Fougère, the floor is yours

[Marie-Lison Fougère, Deputy Minister, Ministry of Francophone Affairs, Accessibility, Francophone Affairs and Seniors Affairs, Government of Ontario]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Good morning, distinguished members of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Official Languages.

I am grateful for this invitation and opportunity to talk to you about the mandate of the Ministry of Francophone Affairs, and about how French-language services are organized in the Ontario public service.

Let me introduce myself. My name is Marie-Lison Fougère and I am the Deputy Minister for Seniors and Accessibility and, since June 2018, Associate Deputy Minister for Francophone Affairs.

Allow me to give a very brief overview of my career.

First, I must mention that French is my mother tongue. I grew up in a unilingual francophone environment in the Rimouski region in eastern Quebec. As those of you who know the Rimouski region can well imagine—although the situation has evolved a lot since that time—I had to learn English as a second language.

I have more than 25 years' experience in the Ontario public service. I have had the opportunity to support various governments and to work very closely with them.

My experience comes in the form of a number of management and senior management positions in various ministries, such as the Ministry of Education, the Ministry of Training, Colleges and Universities, and, of course, the Ministry of Francophone Affairs.

Like my colleague, I have worked very closely with a range of areas, including education at elementary, secondary and post-secondary levels, and labour market training in both English and French.

A number of the areas I have been called upon to handle during my professional career are horizontal in scope. The field of francophone affairs, including French-language services, is one of those areas.

In its legislation, Ontario recognizes the obligation to provide services in French to the province’s francophone community. The right to services in French was enshrined in the French Language Services Act, which was passed in 1986 and came into effect in November 1989. The act was intended to cover many areas, as it still does, and to provide a legal basis for French in the province. By virtue of the act, Francophones in the province are provided with government services in French in designated regions of Ontario.

The French Language Services Act recognizes and emphasizes that the French language is a historic and honoured language in Ontario and that the Constitution of Canada recognizes it as an official language. It also emphasizes that, in Ontario, the French language is recognized as an official language in the courts and in education, and that the Legislature recognizes the contribution of the cultural heritage of the French-speaking population and wishes to preserve it for future generations.

The French Language Services Act is the main legislative instrument governing the provision of French-language services in the province. As such, I would like to very briefly describe the major features of the mandate of the Ministry of Francophone Affairs in the public service of Ontario.

The Ministry of Francophone Affairs oversees the implementation of the French Language Services Act. Very importantly, it works in very close partnership with ministries and agencies so that services in French are provided to the public, particularly in the designated regions of the province. We make recommendations for designating new regions and new agencies. As an example, I should mention Markham, the most recent designated region, where French-language services began to be implemented last summer, in 2018.

We also lead the planning and implementation of French-language services, once a region has been newly designated. Once again, we work very closely with the ministries on the ground to provide services. We collaborate with government ministries and agencies to ensure that the needs and interests of the Franco-Ontarian community are accommodated. In addition, we represent the Government of Ontario in francophone matters.

I would also like to highlight the fact that the ministry supports the provincial advisory committee on francophone affairs. The committee is responsible for providing the Ministry of Francophone Affairs with advice on a range of matters and issues affecting the Francophonie in Ontario. I would also like to point out that Ms. Fortier was a member of the committee a few years ago.

Currently, Ontario has 26 designated regions under the French Language Services Act. This represents about 80% of the Francophones living in Ontario. The province also has more than 200 designated organizations, grouped into various sectors of activity.

However, it is extremely important to emphasize that providing services in French, or, more specifically, the responsibility to provide services in French, is in the hands of the ministries. As a result, the staff of the Ministry of Francophone Affairs works in close collaboration with a team of French-language services coordinators, who work in the ministries.

To make the horizontal management of matters and issues easier, these coordinators are situated in five groups of ministries.

First, we have the health group, which includes the Ministry of Health and Long-Term Care.

Then, the justice group includes the Ministry of the Attorney General and the Ministry of Community Safety and Correctional Services.

The third group, education and community services, includes the Ministry of Children, Social and Community Services, the Ministry of Municipal Affairs and Housing, and the Ministry of Training, Colleges and Universities.

The fourth group deals with the economy and with central organizations. It is made up of the Ministry of Economic Development, Job Creation and Trade, the Ministry of Finance, the Ministry of Government and Consumer Services, and the Ministry of Labour.

Last but not least is the group for lands and resources. It includes the Ministry of Agriculture, Food and Rural Affairs, the Ministry of Transportation, the Ministry of Environment, Conservation and Parks, the Ministry of Natural Resources and Forestry, and the Ministry of Energy, Northern Development and Mines.

I have taken a few minutes to introduce all those groups to you, because it shows the complexity and scope of the tasks before us and the issues in which we are involved.

The French-language services coordinators play an extremely important role because they are responsible for the planning, development and implementation of services in French. They also ensure that their ministries consider the needs and interests of the Franco-Ontarian population. They therefore work in concert with ourselves in the Ministry of Francophone Affairs, to enhance access to services on the ground.

I would like to emphasize that the Ministry of Francophone Affairs works in constant and very close collaboration with various ministries, including the Ministry of Training, Colleges and Universities.

In conclusion, as you know, the Franco-Ontarian community has many faces and is constantly evolving. It is dynamic and creative thanks to a strong drive to come together, and a network of organizations with activities in a variety of fields, such as health, justice, education, economics and communications, to name but a few.

The Ministry of Francophone Affairs intends to continue working in collaboration with all its partners in order to support the vitality of the Franco-Ontarian community.

Thank you for your attention. I will be happy to answer your questions to the best of my ability.

[The Chair, Liberal, Denis Paradis]

Thank you very much for your presentation, Ms. Fougère.

We will start with a period for questions of six minutes each. I have to advise you that the time includes the answer.

Mr. Clarke, the floor is yours.

[Alupa Clarke, Conservative, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Good morning, colleagues. Ms. Fougère, Mr. Zegarac, Mr. McPherson, welcome to Ottawa.

Greetings also to everyone listening to us.

I would like to tell you that inviting you to appear is not the most joyous occasion for us. I understand that this is a difficult moment for you, but our goal is absolutely not to make you uncomfortable or to back you into a corner. Our committee has a responsibility to Parliament to ensure that the language rights of official language communities all over the country are guaranteed and protected. That is the context in which we invited you and I thank you for joining us this morning.

I would like to talk to you about Part VII of the Official Languages Act, which deals with positive measures.

As you said, Ms. Fougère, language matters in Canada are evolving very quickly. Communities are establishing themselves everywhere. There are said to be 700 francophone schools in the country. New high schools continue to appear, as is the case in Whitehorse, where construction work began this week, I believe.

Language matters are evolving very quickly at federal level too. In 2005, under the Paul Martin government, Conservatives and Liberals voted almost unanimously in favour of including positive measures in Part VII of the act. That created a new paradigm for official languages in Canada, because those measures complicate the division of powers between the federal government and the provincial and territorial governments. As Conservatives, honouring areas of jurisdiction is fundamental. As the future government in a few months, we must be responsible and participate in the work of this committee that is designed to protect the constitutional primacy of the country’s two official languages.

However, the positive measures in Part VII of the act could allow the federal level to grant funds on an exceptional basis. That has never really been done before, except a few weeks ago when Ms. Joly unlocked $2 million to establish the Université de l’Ontario français project. That is a start.

However, the idea of granting $40 million to fund the first four years of that same university’s existence is not a good one, because we still do not know the real costs.

Mr. Zegarac, your professional career is exceptional. You have been working in your ministry for 35 years, if I understand correctly, or at least on behalf of the official languages and the Francophonie in Ontario. Can you give us all the figures for the new Université de l’Ontario français in Toronto this morning? Aside from the $80 million in start-up costs, what will be the operational costs for the next eight years, especially if we go from 300 registered students to 3,000? We need to know what those total costs will be, because we cannot embark on a financial adventure in the name of the positive measures in Part VII of the act if we do not know what they are.

[George Zegarac]

The status, as I mentioned, is due to the fiscal condition the provincial government is in. A number of projects have been postponed, not just the French university. We postponed the establishment of three campuses in other locations—in Markham, Brampton and Milton—due to the fiscal condition.

I can't answer when the government will have the fiscal capacity to move forward on this, but I believe the president of the French university testified here in early December that planning dollars were identified. I think he shared with you that the interim board had estimated $84 million over seven years for that university. We allocated—

[Alupa Clarke, Conservative, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

This $84 million concerns what exactly? Are there other expenses?

[George Zegarac]

The final design was never approved. That's why we're continuing to have discussions and why I continued to meet with the board over that period of time.

In the first year we put aside $8 million. In the beginning, it's planning phase: looking at finding facilities, doing research, looking at what the demands would be, starting to negotiate the lease cost to find a facility. For that planning activity, $8 million was allocated for this year. Only $2 million was expended, partly due to circumstances. We had an election in there, and we had to get final approvals after we saw what the fiscal situation was, after two independent reviews.

[Alupa Clarke, Conservative, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Sorry to interrupt you—with all respect, of course.

Does the $84 million concern any other expenses: building, electricity, registration? I just need to know. This is really important.

[George Zegarac]

I'll go through it. It basically had allocations for leasing costs because the intent was to lease a building, not to purchase a building, so it would cover a 10-year lease, for example. The president of the university is probably in the best position to answer because it was their planning. We were reviewing that—

[Alupa Clarke, Conservative, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

We have to evaluate the cost because you will, at the final point, be injecting the funds.

[George Zegarac]

Absolutely.

[Alupa Clarke, Conservative, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Have you evaluated all the costs—all through—of if, for example, we decide to do a positive measure and to give half of the $80 million for the next four years? Could you tell me now, “Mr. Clarke, it's not enough because that does not include, for example, operational costs”? That's what I need to know. The government needs to know.

[George Zegarac]

Our government needs to know, as well, and that's why we work with them around those planning figures. The big variable, quite frankly, is how many students would enrol. We won't know what the student enrolment is until we get further down in that planning process because we don't know how many new students will come. Will it actually take students away from other universities?

There are a number of assumptions that are made, and that's why we work with the board. We constantly meet with the board to go through those assumptions and to get a better idea. They were at the point where they were looking to lease, so we got a better idea of the leasing costs, but each year we would have better information. It's not something that I can answer for the committee today.

[Alupa Clarke, Conservative, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

There's an unknown.

[George Zegarac]

There's definitely an unknown.

[Alupa Clarke, Conservative, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Thank you, sir.

[The Chair, Liberal, Denis Paradis]

Thank you very much, Mr. Clarke.

The floor now goes to Jean Rioux.

[Jean Rioux, Saint-Jean, Lib.]

I would like to thank the witnesses for being here.

We all know that bilingualism is at the foundation of our Canadian identity. When we see that the rights of certain groups are being eroded, it's worrisome. Our committee's mandate is to be informed, which is why we asked you to appear.

I got into politics for one main reason. I'm from the riding of Saint-Jean, where Royal Military College Saint-Jean is located. Classes began again with the start of the 2018 school year. Personally, I think this new school year was important, because it was necessary not only to guarantee francophones access to a college, but also to ensure bilingualism across the country. This college offers courses in both languages and allows anyone to benefit from university courses in French and English.

We learned from the last census that Ontario is currently home to 740,000 francophones—people who speak French. That is the largest francophone minority outside Quebec. That's nothing to sneeze at, 740,000 people.

How many people, young people, immigrants and others do you estimate are enrolled in French-language elementary and secondary schools and in immersion courses? Mr. Zegarac, you started giving figures earlier. Do you have the answer to that question?

[George Zegarac]

What I can share with you is that we have 110,000 francophone students and 200,000 students are in immersion. As I mentioned, we have 22,000 students who currently are engaged, as best we know, in the post-secondary activities.

[Jean Rioux]

To go back to Ontario's French-language university, have you assessed the impact that this institution could have on the economy?

[George Zegarac]

There were studies done by the planning committee that were submitted with government and, as I said, even for the ministry, but the study was more about whether there would be enough demand for those services. As I said, the Malatest study indicated that they believed that there would be enough demand for that university to go forward.

[Jean Rioux]

So the economic benefit hasn't been studied. Could an evaluation be done that could help to relaunch the project?

[George Zegarac]

I think the government continues—and our minister has stated she will continue—to work with Minister Mulroney to look at the opportunity to support the francophone communities, as well as the francophone students. There were some studies done in terms of the locations, but I believe, not necessarily detailed economic impact studies.