Official Languages Committee on Oct. 4th, 2016

[Paul Lefebvre, Liberal, Sudbury, ON]

There are 2,500.

[Valérie Sniadoch]

That was just before the meeting started, so the number is really up-to-date.

We attend fairs like Destination Canada and others. We are seeing that there is a strong interest among francophones to come to Canada.

In Canada, we are looking for skilled people who have a high potential for economic integration so that they do not end up in secondary positions or food services. We must therefore make a preselection from the start to ensure that these people will integrate and stay in Canada and that they will not leave. We're also talking about retention. We don't want to see people leave later.

There are job opportunities at various levels. However, we need to raise employer awareness, and that's where we come in.

As you know, we have an officer based in Sudbury, and we also have officers in Ottawa and Toronto. In our daily work, my team from human resources and the private sector and I, we make sure we have a dialogue as equals with companies to understand their needs and to get them the best workforce possible. They really need to be shown that the issue isn't hiring a francophone immigrant, but hiring a skilled, bilingual person.

[Paul Lefebvre, Liberal, Sudbury, ON]

You have to hire the right person.

[Valérie Sniadoch]

As they say in HR, you have to have the right person in the right place at the right time.

[Paul Lefebvre, Liberal, Sudbury, ON]

It is one thing to bring in francophones who can work in both languages in Ontario, but what challenges are there in retaining them once they are settled and working?

[Valérie Sniadoch]

Are you talking about retention in Ontario, or at a job?

[Paul Lefebvre, Liberal, Sudbury, ON]

Both.

[Valérie Sniadoch]

“Millennials”, that is, those under 30 years old, keep a job for between 15 and 18 months, no more. Especially in the Greater Toronto area, people want to move very quickly, to get a higher salary and a more interesting job. People like that keep jobs for between 15 and 18 months. Retention at work, whether for a person born in Canada or for an immigrant, is somewhat similar, but an immigrant will stay in a job longer than someone born in Canada because they are looking to get more used to Canadian workplace culture. That's the kind of division we are seeing.

As for integration into Canada, you have to know that the immigration process takes time. I am an immigrant myself and it took me more than two years to get my immigration documents, even though I have a Canadian degree. It is quite the process, but people really want it. When you come to Canada, you arrive with the desire to settle and some money, which we are asked to bring. Once you are here, if you are properly advised and shown the right direction, you aren’t going to leave.

You were talking about health earlier. Immigrant doctors are told that it is great that they are coming here because we need French-speaking doctors in Ontario. But when they arrive, they are told that they are not allowed to practice. That is when people leave. I have seen clients who were hospital directors, in Abidjan, for example, or in other places. They were happy to come with their wives and children. But once they got to Canada, they were told that they are not allowed to practice, that they have to go back to school and take jobs as orderlies and such. What do people do in situations like that? They leave, because their lifestyle was better in Abidjan that it would be in Ontario.

I have no figures to give you, but retention really depends on a person’s area of activity and level of education.

[The Chair, Liberal, Denis Paradis]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Choquette, the floor is yours.

[François Choquette, NDP, Drummond, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mrs. Sniadoch, I am going to take full advantage of what you have just said. It is interesting and it leads to the question: how come we still come across these kinds of cases in 2016? How come this is still happening today? When we recruit doctors, we tell them to come here, that they will have a job and that we will help them to become integrated. But once they arrive with their whole families, they realize that their skills are not recognized and they have to leave again. How come we are still wasting so much energy on immigration in general and francophone immigration in particular? It is a big investment; it takes lots of energy. You mentioned your own story, which went on for two years. We want to make sure that people become integrated and enrich our communities. Why do we still have obstacles like this?

[Valérie Sniadoch]

First, I think there is some misinformation for immigrants. If you go to the IRCC site today to apply for immigration, you will see the positions and the areas in demand. However, if you don't dig into the information, you will not see that, in Ontario particularly, there is a very long list of regulated professions. So, if you do not continue with your research, it is not something that you will find out. It is reasonable for you to believe that, since there is a demand, you are going to be able to work immediately.

Some provinces, like Quebec—as Ms. Schulz mentioned a little earlier—have agreements. For example, France has signed an agreement with Quebec in the health area, with nurses. I feel that it is something that should be developed in Ontario. Of course, some countries do not have equivalent studies for a particular area, but other countries do. So it is important to establish a kind of equivalency in the jargon of certain activity areas, because we want to make sure that people can speak English as required in their field of activity. However, some skills are transferable.

Two years ago, IRCC opened a bidding process for pre-departure services for francophones. Today, we have the opportunity to coordinate that service all across Canada, with RDÉE Canada. We can provide people selected for permanent residence with information on areas of activity, on what they have to do in order to work. In fact, at the moment, we are seeing that people are becoming more and more informed. They come to ask us questions, so I feel that the government has done well to inform people beforehand, not once they have passed through through Customs.

[François Choquette, NDP, Drummond, QC]

I feel that there is clearly more to be done.

The Avantage significatif francophone program has been reinstated, something we have been demanding for a long time. It is now called Mobilité francophone. So now, if we want to maintain francophone immigration outside Quebec, in minority communities, it is extremely important for those candidates to receive more points. However, I understand that it can take two years, despite the return of the Mobilité francophone program.

Have we started to see the benefits of the return of the Mobilité francophone program? Do you hear people talk about it? Should we make other improvements to attract skilled immigrants so that they can get into the labour market that you are working on?

[Valérie Sniadoch]

First, I would like to clarify that my two-year process goes back six years, so things have evolved since that time.

As you know, the Avantage significatif francophone program was abolished in September 2014 and the Mobilité francophone program started on June 1 this year. Two years ago, we did a lot of work to make employers aware of the program. We had some excellent success, and then it was abolished. For two years, nothing happened and then the requirements for labour market impact assessments, LMIAs, were tightened. The posting had to be longer and the fees for employers increased. In cases of misconduct, you even went onto a list of unsatisfactory people, and so on. So employers have become more and more cautious about work permits for people who are not in the country.

When Mobilité francophone returned, I genuinely felt that 50% of the awareness work had already been done. With time, we found out that about 70% of the work had to be done again. It was no longer 50%, it was 70%.

[François Choquette, NDP, Drummond, QC]

You say that it's because of this period.

[Valérie Sniadoch]

Yes, because of this period.

Employers were told the person had to be qualified, had to speak French, etcetera. They were given all the criteria for applying for a work permit. Sorry to say, but it's so easy that it become complicated for employers.

I don't know if you're familiar with LMIAs, but the process is extremely fastidious, protracted and complicated, and ultimately, they can be rejected. Mobilité francophone is a very good effort from the government, and we, at RDÉE Ontario, salute it. It facilitates work permits for francophones, but it's so "easy" for employers that they start nitpicking and say to themselves, "Previously, I had to provide justification, but I no longer have to do so. Why?"

[François Choquette, NDP, Drummond, QC]

They're somewhat incredulous.

[Valérie Sniadoch]

That's right.

[The Chair, Liberal, Denis Paradis]

Thank you very much, Mr. Choquette.

The next two people will be sharing their time.

I'll begin by giving the floor to Robert-Falcon Ouellette, for two minutes. It will then be Mr. Arseneault's turn, for the same amount of time.

[Robert-Falcon Ouellette, Liberal, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Kwe kwe.

Thank you for the chance to hear you speak with such passion for your community. I understand that you're speaking for the needs of your community.

You talked about the linguistic duality of our nation, and I believe also that we need to respect both English and French.

Could you just talk about how your life would be different if you didn't speak French? What would that have changed in your life?

[Annick Schulz]

I hope you'll forgive me for answering you in French.

In any event, you've noticed from my accent that I'm from France. There's no sense hiding it. I'm not an immigrant like Valérie Sniadoch, because I'm a former French diplomat who remained in Canada, out of love for the country. In short, my story as an immigrant is a bit different from that of newly arrived people, or traditional immigrants.

French is truly a part of my being. The reason I remained in Canada is that it's possible to speak both French and English. It's worth mentioning that there's some German in my profile too, due to my background in German language studies. I'm trilingual. I think I would really have found something missing if I had arrived in an English-only country. As a diplomat, I've worked in countries where only English was spoken. Being unable to use my mother tongue meant I found something was missing from my everyday life.

[The Chair, Liberal, Denis Paradis]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Arseneault, you have two minutes.

[Robert-Falcon Ouellette, Liberal, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

I actually have about 20 seconds. Sorry, Chair, I guess I better use my full time.

[The Chair, Liberal, Denis Paradis]

Since it's the first time, I will allow you to continue, Mr. Ouellette.

[Robert-Falcon Ouellette, Liberal, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

I am just wondering if you believe that indigenous peoples also have the right to speak, live, and work and, as far as possible, to be educated in their languages; and to hear their languages on the Internet, read their languages in the newspapers, see their languages in Parliament, and watch their languages on TV as well.

[Annick Schulz]

Yes, totally. First nations are an integral part of Canadian civil society. Therefore, as far as I'm concerned, they have the same rights as the anglophone and francophone population.