Official Languages Committee on Feb. 7th, 2017

[Roger Paul]

You are correct, Mr. Samson. I am referring to a British Columbia case and a decision handed down by a judge in that province.

The issue, basically, is assimilation. The problem is that we are told that the francophonie will not survive very long because we are being assimilated. The British Columbia legal ruling was based on facts. The only ones we have are the census data. If we had others, such as the ones you have referred to, perhaps the judge in that case would not have come to the same conclusion. However, since that was her conclusion, several other people throughout the country do not have a good picture of the French-speaking population outside of Quebec. The definition of the francophonie we do have is really incomplete. We don't have all of the data. I can't contradict the judge, because she based her ruling on the data she had. However, there is rampant assimilation. Why is it so important that Statistics Canada add a second and third question, and clarify the first one? It is because otherwise, the British Columbia judge who told us we were going to be assimilated before long is going to be proven right.

[Darrell Samson, Liberal, Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS]

Thank you.

Can you make some brief comments in 30 seconds?

Since that is not the case, I'm going to ask other questions. The next one will help to flesh out the debate.

The next census will take place in 2021. This means that I will have to wait four or five years before having reliable data allowing me to do the work I was elected to do. This data is crucial and I cannot wait four years.

In the meantime, could we add some questions, test them, and do what was done in 2006, that is to say a survey on the vitality of minority official language communities, so as to have a more precise assessment of the number of francophones who live in the regions? The government could at the very least try to provide reliable data while we wait for the next census questionnaire. That would be helpful.

Mr. Hachey or Ms. Gagnon, you have the floor.

[Jean-Pierre Hachey]

This could certainly be useful and interesting. However, it would be important that such a survey not replace the census with regard to these questions. In 2006, people who were targeted by the census survey were identified in the census. We want to survey the entire population and include everyone.

[Darrell Samson, Liberal, Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS]

Absolutely. The important thing is having the data from the census. I would never claim the opposite. I would have a heart attack!

At the very least, it would be essential that we have data now, while we wait for the answers to the formal questions that will be put to Canadians in 2021.

I'm going to ask a third question.

What has been the effect of this 35-year period during which we were unable to identify rights holders, and provide the appropriate services essential to the vitality of francophone communities? If we don't do something different, things will continue as they were.

[Roger Paul]

It has had an enormous effect. I think it is at the very core of the issue and of our interventions.

When I was director general, I tried to prove to the government—the Ontario government, in this case—that we needed schools in certain places. I was then asked a very legitimate question; I was asked for the data proving that schools were needed in certain locations. I could not justify my demands with figures, because I did not have all of the data in this regard. Imagine how far behind we fell during all of this time.

Mr. Rodrigue Landry, an eminent New Brunswick researcher, told us that we have been identifying one true rights holder out of two. When I say “true”, I mean a rights holder who was counted. That rights holder chose a French-language school or another school, but be that as it may, we only counted one out of two.

If we could have the real data, we could easily prove that there are at least twice as many rights holders as those who have been recorded. Otherwise, without the data, there is no way we can prove that.

[Darrell Samson, Liberal, Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS]

What is the effect of that on the vitality of the communities?

[Roger Paul]

In the final analysis, there would be more infrastructure. It's a kind of vicious circle. If there were more buildings, there would be more students. If there were more students, our communities would be seen as being very vital. If there were more infrastructure, it would strengthen not only the schools, but also feed into the vitality of communities.

[Darrell Samson, Liberal, Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS]

Can we talk about bilingualism?

No, since I see that my time is up.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Denis Paradis]

Mr. Samson, thank you for that intervention.

I'd like to mention in passing that next week we will be receiving Mr. Rodrigue Landry.

Mr. Choquette, you now have the floor.

[François Choquette, NDP, Drummond, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I thank the witnesses for being here with us today.

I have only recently become familiar with this whole issue of the census and the related problems. I have only heard about it since I began sitting on the official languages committee. This file is very important because as you said so well, the consequences of not having counted all of the rights holders are serious. In one case that was heard in British Columbia, we were told that we have a right to equal education, of equal quality.

Unfortunately, the facilities for francophones are sometimes dilapidated, and poorly equipped. On the other hand, the facilities for anglophones are on the cutting edge of technology. That said, it is difficult for the rights holders to be attracted by the French-language schools and obtain equal services.

Could you elaborate and tell us why it is so important to provide a good definition of the rights holders? We have to give minority francophone communities equal services if we are to ensure their vitality.

[Melinda Chartrand]

I will answer the question more briefly than Mr. Paul.

This has to do with the nature of the facilities that exist. Without schools for our francophones in minority context, we lose them. Assimilation follows. At this time, one of our practices is that school boards must prepare a five-year plan. In addition, the data we use to develop our requests are provided by Statistics Canada.

In certain urban areas like Toronto, rights holders have doubled in some communities. Unfortunately, we were, for instance, granted a school for only 400 students. After three years, we are overcrowded. The youngsters are in temporary facilities. It can take up to 10 years to obtain funding for an expansion project. That is the reality our school boards are facing throughout Canada.

When you have growth of 2%, 5% or 10% per year in our poorly served francophone regions, the community centres and our other partner organizations work very closely with the communities to ensure their vitality. It's a major issue. Unfortunately, this whole situation has an effect on the francophonie outside Quebec.

[Jean-Pierre Hachey]

I would add that in many cases, education is partly offered in French. For instance, in Toronto, we know that there are very few French-language high schools. The Ontario French-Language Services Commissioner has in fact spoken out against that situation on two occasions. We have a lot of French-language primary schools and very few secondary schools.

To get back to the west, in British Columbia, more than the infrastructure is missing. There are programs that are partial ones because they are heterogeneous. Since we can't determine the number of students we could serve, we have a French-language program or school within an anglophone school, with all of the problems that go with that.

[François Choquette, NDP, Drummond, QC]

I'd like to get back to the Survey on the Vitality of Official Language Minorities that took place in 2006. Someone suggested that we do a similar survey for the period between the censuses. You have clearly shown that the census has to be improved in order to respond properly to section 23 of the charter concerning the three categories of rights holders.

In fact, are you making a suggestion in this regard, and have you thought of it? Has this been discussed in your associations, and have any researchers looked into it?

[Roger Paul]

We did discuss this topic, and it would be an excellent idea to do another survey.

That would be absolutely essential, but we mustn't let this blind us — I would say that we need other means to assess how this lack of information has consequences on the vitality and sustainability of our communities.

As Mr. Samson said earlier, isn't there something else we can do between censuses? For the moment, if we wait for the next census, we will have lost a certain number of years of data and this will once again weaken the vitality of our communities.

The other important point that we must also remember is that one does not exclude the other. It would be to Statistics Canada's benefit to collect more complete data to help us bolster the vitality of our communities.

[The Chair, Liberal, Denis Paradis]

Thank you very much.

The next two speakers are going to share their time, and they are Mr. Paul Lefebvre and Mr. Dan Vandal.

Gentlemen, you each have three minutes.

Mr. Lefebvre, you have the floor.

[Paul Lefebvre, Liberal, Sudbury, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Ladies and gentlemen, I thank you very much for being here with us today.

For us, the question of properly determining who is a rights holder and who has a right to schooling in French is of the utmost importance. I of course agree with my colleague, although I may be less colourful and generate less volume.

We are discussing the fact that the census has not met its obligations and it does not collect the information we need. What questions would you like to see added to the census to find those answers, and to allow us to have the data that would help us respect section 23 of the Charter?

[Jean-Pierre Hachey]

Mr. Paul raised this topic earlier. We must not forget that some people are dissuaded from answering the question on mother tongue. There is a question, but it is imperfect. As Mr. Paul said, the instructions clearly say that if you learned two languages at the same time and spoke one less often than the other, you must choose only one of those languages. In fact, it is asking people to provide false information.

I think that on that topic we would like it to be clearer.

[Paul Lefebvre, Liberal, Sudbury, ON]

Yes, and that can be corrected.

Have you thought of a model or a question which in your opinion would allow us to obtain the necessary data to truly identify the rights holders?

[Jean-Pierre Hachey]

We have certainly talked about it a lot. However, we don't claim to be able to do Statistics Canada's work, as they are the ones who know, for instance, how to test the questions. However, we do think it would be possible to ask a question about the language in which parents and their children studied.

[Paul Lefebvre, Liberal, Sudbury, ON]

I would go even further, Mr. Hachey. I would say, given what the Supreme Court ruled in the Mahe case, that this is practically a constitutional obligation, and that in order to identify the rights holders, we could hold a census.

Mr. Corbeil from Statistics Canada, stated that the census currently only meets the requirements of subsection (1) of section 23 of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms, and not subsections (2) and (3). That said, in light of part VII of the Official Languages Act, in my opinion, we are talking here about a quasi- constitutional obligation.

Given what the Supreme Court had to say and the wording of section 23 of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms, could we even go so far as to say that this aspect of the census is practically unconstitutional? Has such an argument ever been made?

[Jean-Pierre Hachey]

It has never been submitted to the courts, but it certainly could be.

[Paul Lefebvre, Liberal, Sudbury, ON]

In light of...

[Jean-Pierre Hachey]

It could be said that this is required by part VII of the Official Languages Act. In addition, since the census is a federal government obligation, it should do what needs to be done to implement section 23 properly.

[Paul Lefebvre, Liberal, Sudbury, ON]

Excellent.

Let's suppose the federal government accepted to change the question and that we obtained data. It is clear that in the wake of that, the responsibility of providing services in the official language would fall to the province. Is that right? Are we agreed on that?

Suppose we obtain the census data we need. Given the jurisprudence that has been established, how would access to that data profit the community?

I know the answer, but I would like it to be stated for the record. Since we are going to draft a report when our work is complete, I would like your words to be on the record.

[Isabelle Laurin]

Clearly, that would really equip us. We already have good relations with the government of our province and with the Department of Education. This would allow us to better plan our future needs, which we are unable to do for the moment. This would allow us to beef up all of the political interventions that are a bit skewed since we don't have proper information.