Evidence of meeting #44 for Official Languages in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was interpreters.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Dominique Bohbot  Distinguished Member, Association of Linguistic Services Managers
Nicole Gagnon  Canada's Lead for Advocacy, International Association of Conference Interpreters
Jim Thompson  Communication Counsel, International Association of Conference Interpreters
Melinda Chartrand  Chair, Fédération nationale des conseils scolaires francophones
Roger Paul  Executive Director, Fédération nationale des conseils scolaires francophones
Isabelle Laurin  Executive Director, Association canadienne-française de l'Alberta
Jean-Pierre Hachey  Lawyer, Association canadienne-française de l'Alberta

12:15 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Denis Paradis

Thank you, Mr. Paul.

We will now hear from the representatives of the Association canadienne-française de l'Alberta. I assume Ms. Laurin will be giving the presentation?

12:15 p.m.

Isabelle Laurin Executive Director, Association canadienne-française de l'Alberta

Yes, I will begin.

12:20 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Denis Paradis

Please go ahead, Ms. Laurin.

12:20 p.m.

Executive Director, Association canadienne-française de l'Alberta

Isabelle Laurin

Hello Mr. Chair and honourable members.

My name is Isabelle Laurin and I am the executive director of the Association canadienne-française de l'Alberta, the ACFA.

Thank you for inviting us to appear before you today.

Let me say to begin that our chair, Mr. Jean Johnson, sends his regrets as he cannot be here this morning.

I would also like to thank the committee for undertaking this study on the Canadian census and the for recognizing its importance as a tool in implementing the linguistic rights of the French-speaking community, in Alberta and right across Canada.

I am here this morning with one of our lawyers, Mr. Jean-Pierre Hachey, who will give part of the presentation.

Also, I wish to inform you that the ACFA is preparing a more exhaustive report on these matters and will be sending the committee a copy of it on February 23.

Let me begin with a few words about our organization.

The ACFA has represented Alberta's francophone community for over 90 years. It coordinates and monitors the community's advocacy and development activities in collaboration with the other francophone organizations in the province.

The ACFA is also responsible for consultation with francophone organizations throughout the province and for all community development planning. In collaboration with the province's francophone organizations, the ACFA promotes francophone pride and culture throughout Alberta, and projects a positive image of Alberta's francophones in Alberta communities.

The ACFA fully supports the position of education stakeholders that the mother tongue question should be modified to make it more clear, and that questions about the language of instruction of parents and their children should be added.

Without knowing the number and geographic distribution of these individuals, it becomes very difficult for these school boards to reach all rights holders and fulfill their responsibilities. That being said, these demographic data are not only important fo the school boards, they are also essential for minority French-speaking communities and organizations such as ours that represent them to enable them to achieve other objectives aimed at enhancing their vitality.

For example, census data provide the federal, provincial and territorial governments with an understanding of where official language minority populations are and allow them to plan for adequate services in the minority language. In this regard, it goes without saying that richer data would be very useful to the federal government, in particular in its review of the Official Languages Regulations, which was announced last November.

One of the missions of community organizations is to reach French speakers in order to promote the French language and culture, create francophone spaces, and combat linguistic and cultural assimilation. To fulfill this mission, these organizations also have a strong need for accurate information on the demographic reality of their target population. Rich, complete data on French speakers would allow the ACFA and other community organizations to target their interventions and awareness-raising activities more effectively.

These data have also become necessary as a result of major demographic changes that have occurred in recent decades. The Alberta francophone community includes a growing number of immigrants, among whom are people who understand French better than English, but who have a mother tongue other than French.

Our francophonie also includes bilingual anglophones or allophones living in families where French has a strong presence or is even the primary language. There is also a growing number of children of exogamous or linguistically mixed couples. Some of those children have been raised in a bilingual environment and have learned French and another language from a young age. Others have not learned French until they started at one of our French schools or in an immersion program.

These new demographic realities reflect an evolving francophone community, and it is important for governments and community actors to have the best demographic information possible on this population in order to understand it better. In that context, it is particularly important to adapt the census questionnaire, for example, by changing the question on the mother tongue and the instructions that accompany that question, which suggest to many people that they must choose between their mother tongues.

I will now turn it over to Mr. Hachey, who will talk about the importance of this data for official language minority rights holders.

12:20 p.m.

Jean-Pierre Hachey Lawyer, Association canadienne-française de l'Alberta

Thank you.

Hello everyone.

Reliable, complete data on French speakers outside Quebec are necessary to uphold at least two constitutional rights: first, the right to minority language instruction guaranteed under section 23 of the charter, which applies where numbers warrant; and secondly, the right to federal services in the official languages of one's choice, which is guaranteed by paragraph 20(1) of the charter and depends on significant demand.

In the case of both of these rights, communities and governments must be able to identify the number of individuals who could potentially exercise these rights and their geographic distribution. In both cases, census data are used to evaluate and justify the demand for services. The census provides the evidence that the data are accurate. If the numbers are not backed up by solid evidence, it is much more difficult and at times impossible to demonstrate that the numerical criteria have been met, which means that francophone minority communities lose their rights.

In the recent case about French-language schools in British Columbia, for instance, my colleagues and I had to demonstrate that the numbers in various communities were sufficient. The Supreme Court of British Columbia handed down a ruling last September, which demonstrates the serious consequences of a lack of complete, reliable data on the members of the francophone community and their children. In the decision, the court recognized that the census underestimated the number of children with at least one parent holding rights under section 23 of the charter. The court refused, however, to infer the number of those children based on evidence other than census data. This had a very adverse effect on rights in a number of communities. The court recognized that the census data omitted rights holders and their children, and in fact omitted whole categories of rights holders, but its analysis of what the numbers warrant was based on census data. This was exclusively data about parents with French as a first language, as reported in the census.

The evidence included testimony from a number of parents with rights under section 23, whose children attend French-language schools, but who are not identified as rights holders by the census. Among these witnesses, there were individuals whose mother tongue was French and English, but who indicated English only on the census form, thinking they had to choose one. There were also parents, or spouses, whose first language was French or English, but who just put “English” for the household when filling out the form for the whole family because it was the dominant language or the commonly spoken language in the home.

The witnesses also included parents who held rights based on their education, whether at a French-language school in Quebec or a French-language minority school outside Quebec, and other parents who held rights based on their children's education.

The lesson is clear: the census alone can enumerate rights holders and their children. It is therefore essential that it be improved to be more effective. This lack of data does not of course only impact cases that end up before the courts. Many government decisions are based on census data, including decisions to grant capital funding for schools or not, and decisions about where government services must be offered in the minority language.

It is important to collect data on linguistic minorities from 100% of the population. The actual number of members of these communities must be counted, which means that the questions that yield this data must be included in the short form census, which is distributed to 75% of the population. All the questions on the short form census are also in the long form. As a result, 100% of the population answers these questions.

So the question on mother tongue is asked to 100% of the population. That should not change. The questions on education, which should be added, should also be put to 100% of the population. That would make it possible to get a complete count of those individuals and not simply infer their number from a sample of 25% of the population.

Moreover, past experience has shown that the data on linguistic minorities, which are estimated solely on the basis of the long form census data, are not reliable, especially for smaller regions. Mr. Paul also mentioned a school catchment area. At that level, it is simply not reliable.

Finally, under part VII of the Official Languages Act, it is incumbent on the federal government to take positive measures to enhance the vitality of official language minority communities.

It is difficult to imagine a more positive measure for these communities than to modify the census questionnaire so their members can be identified in a complete, reliable way. That would make it possible to uphold the right to education and to services in the minority language, while equipping governments and in turn community organizations to support and assist the development and enhance the vitality of those communities.

We will be pleased to answer your questions.

Thank you.

12:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Denis Paradis

Thank you very much, Mr. Hachey and Ms. Laurin.

We will now begin the question and comment period.

Mr. Généreux, you have the floor.

12:30 p.m.

Conservative

Bernard Généreux Conservative Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I would like to thank the witnesses for being with us here this morning.

My question is for all of you.

Are there other ways of conducting the census? Could these data be obtained from the provinces, school boards or the communities, specifically the minority language communities?

Have your organizations or other associations made any suggestions in this regard?

12:30 p.m.

Executive Director, Fédération nationale des conseils scolaires francophones

Roger Paul

Thank you for the question.

We could try to use surveys to determine who is a rights holder and who is not but, unlike Statistics Canada, we do not have the necessary resources to gather all that information through a mandatory survey.

Having served as executive director of a school board, I can tell you that it is extremely difficult to determine who is a rights holder and who is not. For our part, we rely on Statistics Canada data.

12:30 p.m.

Conservative

Bernard Généreux Conservative Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC

I see.

In that case, would it be possible for Statistics Canada to add questions?

The next census will be in 2021, in about four years, and the answers will not available right away. That means that, for the next six, seven, or eight years, we cannot rely on new data to implement new services or determine who the rights holders are.

Mr. Hachey, you mentioned the Superior Court or the Supreme Court ...

12:30 p.m.

Lawyer, Association canadienne-française de l'Alberta

Jean-Pierre Hachey

It was the Supreme Court.

12:30 p.m.

Conservative

Bernard Généreux Conservative Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC

Does the Supreme Court rely solely on Statistics Canada data?

From what you said, it seems there is no other data on the basis of which we might be able to make requests.

12:30 p.m.

Lawyer, Association canadienne-française de l'Alberta

Jean-Pierre Hachey

The Supreme Court relied on that data. It also ordered the province to collect data. However, the school board and the province agreed that the most effective, if not the only tool, is the census.

12:30 p.m.

Conservative

Bernard Généreux Conservative Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC

Okay.

12:30 p.m.

Lawyer, Association canadienne-française de l'Alberta

Jean-Pierre Hachey

There is a very partial precedent in Alberta for data being collected by school boards. English-language school boards are responsible for collecting data, using a long form, about allergies and so forth, as well as linguistic data. This nearly represents a conflict of interest, however, if the data collected is used to determine whether those students are eligible to attend schools in another school board.

12:30 p.m.

Conservative

Bernard Généreux Conservative Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC

Why have we not thought of this sooner since we have been conducting the census in Canada for a long time?

Have minority-language school boards already made representations to a committee in Ottawa, calling for these aspects to be included in the census?

If not, is this an indication of an evolution in thinking or in society that people are now saying that these aspects should be included in the census?

12:30 p.m.

Executive Director, Fédération nationale des conseils scolaires francophones

Roger Paul

I want to point out that our organization, a French-language school board outside of Quebec, has not existed for very long. We acquired our rights following many battles involving governance rights.

Before that, we were far more involved with anglophones. We had advisory committees. We were very busy during our development. Like any emerging school board, we needed infrastructure, organization and a certain level of autonomy.

We had priorities during those years. However, we must not forget what happened a certain number of years ago. The fact that the long-form census was suddenly no longer mandatory caught us unawares to some degree.

All this to say that the questions that were not raised were not on the agenda of school boards because they had a lot of things to organize. Could they have been asked 10, 15 or 20 years ago? You are certainly right on that, but it did not happen.

12:35 p.m.

Lawyer, Association canadienne-française de l'Alberta

Jean-Pierre Hachey

I would simply add that some of these issues are clearly on the upswing, for instance the issues regarding the children of exogamous couples who did not learn French as a mother tongue. Some of these people who went to French schools and are beginning to have their own families send their children to French school. They are not included in the census. There are some of these reasons why more and more people are coming into the system.

12:35 p.m.

Conservative

Bernard Généreux Conservative Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC

Would the questions you would suggest to Statistics Canada in order to obtain the information you seek be easy to answer for the respondents?

12:35 p.m.

Executive Director, Fédération nationale des conseils scolaires francophones

Roger Paul

That is what we hope.

The first question in the Statistics Canada survey has several possible interpretations. It is not clear. It urges people to choose a single language—in most cases, that would be English—as their mother tongue. However, the question does not give the person the opportunity to answer that he speaks more than one language and has in fact mastered both. If the French-language school boards had that data, it would be easier to identify the potential pool of students. However, they do not have that data.

I would like to add this to what Mr. Hachey was saying. Several provinces and territories may now admit students whose parents are not rights holders, strictly speaking. A francophile who wants to send his child to one of our schools, for example, where there are approximately 100,000 students, can do so by going through an admissions committee. Once the child has been admitted into one of our schools, he or she becomes, as does his family, a rights holder. However, we cannot obtain information on this from Statistics Canada.

12:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Denis Paradis

Thank you very much.

We will now hear from the person you identified as an expert, Mr. Samson.

February 7th, 2017 / 12:35 p.m.

Liberal

Darrell Samson Liberal Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I thank the witnesses very much for being here with us today.

In seven minutes I'm going to try to paint a picture of the situation and explain how I see it. Afterwards, you may provide me with information.

My colleague, Mr. Généreux, who certainly has his heart in the right place, did not mention that it was the Conservative government that shortened the census form. That is a very important aspect that should be mentioned. The other very important aspect is that if children who are rights holders do not go to French schools, they can lose their status, which is very serious. This saddens me.

The Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms has existed for 35 years, more than half my age. That said, this is really a propitious time for change. We are really at the crossroads. In my opinion, the moment is ideal, because there are a lot of adjustments to be made.

First I want to talk about common law; I like it a lot because it depends on precedents. However, sometimes we have to wait a long time before we see results, and that is in fact the problem. The Charter of Rights and Freedoms says that there are three groups of Canadians who hold the right to instruction in the language of the minority. What I like, and it paves the way for change today, is that our friend Mr. Corbeil from Statistics Canada confirmed in the Senate on December 20, 2016—two months ago—that the census only involves subsection (1) of section 23 of the Charter. And so he clearly admitted that for 35 years, we have not been doing the work that needed to be done under subsections (2) and (3) of section 23. That is crucial. It paves the way for change.

Allow me to give you a brief history of the situation.

In 1990, in the Mahe ruling, the court said that we had to have numerical criteria, numbers, quantified data.

In 2006, there was a very good survey on the vitality of minorities that put forward numbers that were much higher than those that were published previously. Even the Commissioner of Official Languages said that the exercise was very, very commendable and that we had to continue to conduct such surveys. What happened? No such survey has been done since 2006. It's unfortunate that the commissioner said that. If he had not, perhaps the surveys would have continued.

That said, in 2016—we are getting closer to the current day—the Supreme Court of British Columbia said, as you mentioned, that the provinces had to have this data and that this necessary and reliable information had to be provided. The story kind of reminds me of Christopher Columbus.

As a former director general, I feel uncomfortable today. I was director general for 11 years. I worked with the data that Statistics Canada provided. There were 8,000 rights holders in Nova Scotia. There were 4,000 in my association, so 50% of the whole. However, the math had not been done correctly. It was 50% under subsection (1) of section 23. Thirty-five years later, we are still asking ourselves questions on this. It means that as directors general of all of the school boards, it was incumbent upon us by virtue of our position, our role, and as employees, to make sure that we offered these services to the rights holders. We did not do so because we were not aware of the data relating to subsections (2) and (3). That is a mortal sin and I feel very bad.

I will ask you three quick questions.

First of all, how do you feel, Mr. Paul? You spent 31 years as a school principal, as director general, and now you are director general of the Fédération nationale des conseils scolaires. What do you think about that? What do you think about the fact that we were unable to provide services to all of those students?

12:40 p.m.

Executive Director, Fédération nationale des conseils scolaires francophones

Roger Paul

I really like the energy you bring to this, Mr. Samson.

12:40 p.m.

Liberal

Darrell Samson Liberal Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS

I'll ask you to answer briefly because our time is limited.

12:40 p.m.

Executive Director, Fédération nationale des conseils scolaires francophones

Roger Paul

If you agree, I will not answer in the same way.

12:40 p.m.

Voices

Oh, oh!