Official Languages Committee on Feb. 14th, 2017

[The Chair, Liberal, Denis Paradis]

Hello everyone.

Before starting the meeting, I want to officially wish a happy birthday to our colleague, John Nater.

Today we're studying the issues related to the enumeration of rights-holders under section 23 of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms.

We're pleased to be meeting this morning with Jean-Pierre Corbeil, the assistant director of the social and aboriginal statistic division at Statistics Canada. Welcome, Mr. Corbeil.

We'll listen to your presentation. You'll have ten minutes to speak. Afterward, as usual, the committee members can ask questions and provide comments.

The floor is yours.

[Jean-Pierre Corbeil, Assistant Director, Social and Aboriginal Statistic Division, Statistics Canada]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to thank the committee members for inviting me, as a representative of Statistics Canada, to appear before them to contribute to their study on the issues related to the enumeration of rights-holders under section 23 of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms.

I’ll cover three main topics.

I’ll begin by discussing some considerations and challenges related to the addition of questions to the 2021 census concerning the enumeration of children of rights-holders.

I’ll then provide background information regarding the enumeration of rights-holder parents under section 23 of the charter using official statistics.

Finally, I’ll provide some information on the 2021 census content consultation process.

Let me say that Statistics Canada recognizes the importance of official languages and the statistical tools it provides to data users in the government and the communities in general. For many years, the government has been committed to ensuring that the Canadian public has access to an extensive amount of statistical data on language.

Canada is the only country to ask seven questions on language in its census of population. This shows that the Government of Canada recognizes the importance of this topic and is committed to taking this key dimension of Canadian society into account in the framework for its policies and programs.

Statistics Canada recognizes that the collection of data on rights-holders and their children constitutes a very important need for official language minority communities. As such, the committee members’ comments and suggestions are very important to us.

Given the number of questions in the census and the number of requests to add new questions, Statistics Canada must find a balance between needs on the one hand, and, on the other hand, costs, the response burden, data quality, and so on. In other words, adding questions to the census requires a whole set of considerations, and those related to data quality can’t be sacrificed.

In general, consultations led by Statistics Canada reveal that information needs are much larger than what the census can accommodate. The federal agency is always looking for ways to take those needs into account and to measure them.

Therefore, the enumeration of rights-holders and of their children requires a careful and precise assessment of the available means and tools by which the best data can be collected on this subject. Statistics Canada must assess the advantages and disadvantages of the various data collection processes.

The Census of Population includes a question on the first language learned in childhood and still understood—that is, the mother tongue—by the parent. This addresses paragraph 23(1)(a) of the charter.

It does not, however, contain a question on the language of instruction received by the parent in primary school—paragraph 23(1)(b) of the charter—nor does it contain questions on language of instruction in elementary or secondary school of the child of a Canadian citizen—subsection 23(2) of the charter.

Statistics Canada conducted testing in the national census tests of both 1993 and 1998 to assess the collection of data related to language of instruction within the census. The assessments showed that respondents had significant difficulties distinguishing between immersion programs, second-language programs, and official-language minority school programs. Therefore, past experience has demonstrated that in order to accurately capture the information on language of instruction, a more comprehensive set of questions is needed.

While the census collects information on mother tongue and citizenship, the only Statistics Canada data source that can directly estimate the number of rights holders is the 2006 survey on the vitality of official language minorities.

Statistics Canada conducted the post-census survey on the vitality of official language minorities in partnership with 10 federal departments and agencies. Among other themes, the survey included more than five different modules to measure various dimensions of education, including the complex enumeration of the population covered under section 23 of the charter. It also provides information on the main reasons behind parents' choices for the language of instruction of their children.

In addition to the question on mother tongue, 11 questions were required in the post-census survey to address paragraphs 23(1)(a) and (b) and subsection 23(2) of the charter. This survey has been proposed as a solution for the enumeration of rights holders on the basis of previous experiments and tests results regarding language of schooling.

According to the post-census survey, 52% of children in Canada outside Quebec with at least one rights holder parent attended French school. Of the children enrolled in elementary school, 56% went to French school, compared to 47% of secondary school students. Lastly, 15% of children of rights holder parents were enrolled in a French immersion program.

The census of population enumerates rights-holders only as defined by paragraph 23(1)(a). The question is how this one piece of information is relevant to the intended goal.

According to the 2006 census, following which the post-census survey of 2006 was conducted, 185,675 children aged 5 to 17 in Canada outside Quebec had at least one French-mother-tongue parent. They represented 89% of the 209,220 children of rights-holders in the same age group who attended an elementary or secondary school, as determined by the vitality survey.

These results are consistent with the analyses produced using only this post-census data. When we consider all children of rights-holders in Canada outside Quebec in this survey, 96% had at least one parent whose mother tongue is French. This means that, although the census provides for the enumeration of rights-holder parents only under paragraph 23(1)(a), these comparative analyses nevertheless confirm that a strong majority of rights-holders outside Quebec are represented.

As regards the estimation of rights-holders in Quebec, census data on mother tongue isn’t useful, since paragraph 23(1)(a) of the charter isn’t in force in Quebec as a result of section 59 of the Constitution Act, 1982.

The census of population is based on a well-established seven-year process, which begins with census planning and ends with the official data release. Four years prior to census day, consultations with data users and partners begin across Canada to gather feedback and recommendations on the information collected in the census.

In fall 2017, Statistics Canada will start the 2021 census content formal public consultation process. This process will include a publicly available Internet questionnaire and discussions during meetings with provincial and territorial representatives, the various levels of government, community organizations and academics across Canada.

Any changes proposed to the content of the census of population will undergo a rigorous assessment, including qualitative and quantitative tests, based on Statistics Canada’s high quality standards. For the 2021 census, tests will be conducted in 2018 and 2019. The testing will include focus groups with specific population groups that may be impacted by the proposed changes. These focus groups will be conducted in several languages and in various regions across the country.

Lastly, qualitative tests will be followed by large-scale pilot tests with different content options and methods administrated to a large sample of Canadians in several regions of the country. The consultation process led by Statistics Canada for the 2021 census will also draw on all government partners, which are important contributors to each census of population cycle.

In addition, within the context of those consultations, Statistics Canada will take positive measures to reach out to official language minority community representatives to discuss the enumeration of rights-holders. However, the decision to add questions on languages to the census is not made only by Statistics Canada. The decision is ultimately made by the government.

Therefore, Statistics Canada will prepare content recommendations for the 2021 census based on feedback from the consultations and test results. The content recommendations for the 2021 census will then be presented to the government for consideration. Pursuant to the Statistics Act, the Governor in Council shall, by order, prescribe the questions to be asked in the 2021 census.

As regards the time frame, the activities leading to the 2021 census include the consultation process, the development of questions, the tests, and, lastly, the census content recommendation to the government. All these activities will take place over the coming years, in other words, between now and the end of 2019.

Thank you. I’ll gladly answer your questions on this topic.

[The Chair, Liberal, Denis Paradis]

Thank you, Mr. Corbeil.

We'll proceed directly to the questions and comments.

Mrs. Boucher, you have the floor.

[Sylvie Boucher, Conservative, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Corbeil, for being here today. I want to welcome you to the committee's new space. It's very nice.

Several questions come to mind.

When we talk about rights-holders, does everyone understand what that means? I've noticed that some people with whom I speak about the subject have no idea. Is the term properly explained to the average person?

As members, we know this expression. However, many people today still don't understand the term “rights-holder”.

[Jean-Pierre Corbeil]

You're absolutely right. Obviously, we don't ask specific questions such as “are you a rights-holder?”

I think the distinction between the parents and their children is the main source of confusion. The children aren't the rights-holders. Their parents are the rights-holders. Their parents have the right to enrol them in an official language minority school under section 23 of the charter. As you probably know, this section contains three subsections.

We're trying to inform people as much as possible about the subject. That said, when we conducted the survey on the vitality of official language minorities, we didn't need to explain the concept of rights-holders to people, since the questions were clear enough. In addition, even though the subject of education is complicated, it didn't cause a problem as such. However, I agree with you that there's a great deal of confusion.

[Sylvie Boucher, Conservative, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

Yes, there's confusion. Even today, when we speak with certain rights-holders, it's not clear to them.

Also, can you explain how you enumerate francophone rights-holders?

I'm a francophone from Quebec. Let's say I need to respond to a questionnaire that isn't available in French, but I decide to fill it out in English anyway. Would I then be considered an anglophone?

Since I'm from Quebec, I'm still francophone. However, I responded to the questionnaire in another language. How do you determine the number of francophone rights-holders? What are your criteria?

[Jean-Pierre Corbeil]

We must distinguish between identification with a community and the fact that a person is designated francophone or non-francophone. In principle, section 23 doesn't make this distinction and doesn't mention the term “francophone” or “anglophone”.

That said, paragraph 23(1)(a) concerns the first language learned in childhood and still understood at the time of the census, namely, the mother tongue. As I mentioned before, this is probably the most important criterion outside Quebec when it comes to determining the number.

Paragraph 23(1)(b) concerns the parent's language of primary school instruction. This information isn't available in the census. However, the question was asked as part of the survey on the vitality of official language minorities.

According to the third criteria, if a child of the family is attending or has attended a minority language school, the child's parents can send their other children to a minority language school, even if French isn't their mother tongue and they didn't receive primary school instruction in French.

As I said earlier, it's not really important to distinguish between who is and who isn't a francophone when implementing the provisions of section 23.

[Sylvie Boucher, Conservative, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

So we can't put an exact figure on the francophone population. It's still unclear. For example, if I speak French and French is my mother tongue, but I decide to attend the English school, this doesn't make me an anglophone.

[Jean-Pierre Corbeil]

The difficult thing to understand is that we're not talking about francophones and anglophones here. In the census, five or six possible definitions of francophone or anglophone may be used, but this distinction isn't made. Each person is free to use one definition or another.

At this time, the only data in the census available to help us determine the number of francophone rights-holders outside Quebec is the parent's mother tongue. We don't have the other criteria.

In the survey on the vitality of official language minorities, we asked 11 questions that helped us determine the number of rights-holders parents and children of these parents.

[Sylvie Boucher, Conservative, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

In this case, couldn't the 11 questions in the vitality survey, which helped you collect data and better understand the francophonie landscape outside Quebec and the situation of anglophones in Quebec, be included in the census? This would provide a better picture of the francophone or francophile reality.

[Jean-Pierre Corbeil]

You're asking a very important question. As I said earlier, we must first determine whether the census is the best tool to answer these questions.

You know that the census currently has over 50 questions. We receive all kinds of requests to add questions from across the country. For example, aboriginal groups want questions on aboriginal people. Others want questions on gender identity or same-sex couples. There's a huge number of requests. The question has been asked, and Statistics Canada will need to determine whether, of all the tools available, the census is the most appropriate tool.

It should also be known that the addition of this many questions to the census usually creates a response burden for the entire Canadian population. We must determine whether this should be done through the census, through a post-census survey or by using the provinces' administrative files. In other words, we would encourage the provinces to ask a certain question, which would enable us to collect the information from each provincial authority.

The goal is clear. We want a better idea of the number of rights-holders. At this point, we still need to determine the best way to achieve this goal.

[The Chair, Liberal, Denis Paradis]

Thank you very much.

I now yield the floor to Mr. Lefebvre.

[Paul Lefebvre, Liberal, Sudbury, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you for being with us, Mr. Corbeil.

My comments are in the same vein as Mrs. Boucher's. However, before I begin, I would like to go back to the reason why we are examining this. The next census will take place in 2021, and it is clear that we have to start looking at the data now.

In several francophone communities from one end of the country to the other, people have a lot of trouble obtaining services in French, and perhaps even education in French.

This data is crucial for the sustainability of our communities, period. Moreover, a lot of people want services in their language, but the absence of accurate data stops us from progressing. We have seen this in several Supreme Court rulings. Unfortunately, the Supreme Court and even the school boards in other provinces use that excuse. They claim that in the absence of data they can do nothing, and that is the end of it. The survival of our francophone communities outside Quebec is threatened.

This explains the importance of the next census, or, as you said, of some other tool comparable to the post-census survey on the vitality of communities that you conducted in 2006.

I would like to go back to something you said in your statement. Would it be possible to get your speaking notes? I don't have any. Could you give us some?

[Jean-Pierre Corbeil]

No problem.

[The Chair, Liberal, Denis Paradis]

You will have the notes.

[Paul Lefebvre, Liberal, Sudbury, ON]

Excellent. Thank you.

You said that it was not up to Statistics Canada to make decisions, but that it was incumbent upon the government. Who exactly within the government makes those decisions? Which department makes the final decisions in this regard?

[Jean-Pierre Corbeil]

I would like to make a small correction.

[Paul Lefebvre, Liberal, Sudbury, ON]

Go ahead.

[Jean-Pierre Corbeil]

I did not say that it was not up to Statistics Canada to make decisions on these issues. In fact, Statistics Canada conducts tests, takes recommendations into account, and assesses the possible options very carefully. That is why I mentioned the census tests; the 1993 and 1998 census included a question on language of education. The 1993 census included such a question, and there were two questions in 1998.

An analysis was done, and following the assessment, recommendations were made as to what was possible or not.

[Paul Lefebvre, Liberal, Sudbury, ON]

And who is the recommendation made to?

[Jean-Pierre Corbeil]

Ultimately, the recommendation is submitted to the government, and cabinet decides...

[Paul Lefebvre, Liberal, Sudbury, ON]

Fine.

[Jean-Pierre Corbeil]

... and approves the content of the census.

[Paul Lefebvre, Liberal, Sudbury, ON]

Thank you, I just learned something.

As Mrs. Boucher mentioned, at this time the census contains seven questions and there were 11 in the survey. So there were four additional questions. You said that the census contained 50 and that we could add some, because it would be primordial that we obtain that data.

Last week, witnesses appeared here and I put the same question to them. You're not a lawyer and I will not put legal questions to you. But I was wondering if the census is not in breach of the rights granted by section 23 of the charter. You said yourself that the census only collects some data with regard to paragraph 23(1)(a), and not for the rest. In light of what the Supreme Court said on several occasions, and given the lack of data, we have a serious problem, in my opinion. We are not respecting our obligations toward francophones outside Quebec under the charter.

[Jean-Pierre Corbeil]

Thank you for your question. My answer has two parts.

You talked about adding four questions. That is not the case, because the seven questions in the current census cover other dimensions. There is a possibility of adding 10 other questions because the 11th is the one that is already included in the census; it concerns citizenship. In fact, in the census the issues of mother tongue and citizenship are raised, but 10 other questions are needed if we are to take into account the other two paragraphs of section 23.

In addition, although the census is certainly one of the most important sources of data for Statistics Canada, there are also many others. I will give you an example.

Education falls under provincial jurisdiction. Statistics Canada has a Centre for Education Statistics that conducts many surveys. There is a key survey known as the Elementary-Secondary Education Survey. In fact, that survey collects statistical data in all of the provinces and collates that information. It is thanks to that survey that we know every year, and not every five years, how many young people are registered in immersion programs and how many attend minority schools. It is thanks to that survey that is conducted annually by every province.

And so, to answer your question, I wonder if we could not call on every province and territory and ask them to add a question on the language of education of the parent at the primary level. Statistics Canada has to have that question and assess it. That way, we could obtain annual data on the topic, rather than having the information every five years. That does add a burden, however, as to the number of answers people have to provide in the census.

Moreover, the matter of income was raised. It is no longer included in the census because that information is now obtained from Canadians' tax returns. It is also a way of adapting to the new and evolving tools that are now available, and that is why I mention that possibility.