Official Languages Committee on Feb. 14th, 2017

[Jean-Pierre Corbeil]

Absolutely.

[René Arseneault, Liberal, Madawaska—Restigouche, NB]

Do you agree with me when I say that the fact that we cannot currently enumerate the rights holders pursuant to section 23, is an affront to the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms?

[Jean-Pierre Corbeil]

I don't know if it's an affront to the charter, but, if there is a problem in that respect, it must be solved. I agree with you on that.

[René Arseneault, Liberal, Madawaska—Restigouche, NB]

I know that you are not a lawyer and I do not want to make you say things that could annoy you.

Do you get the feeling that Statistics Canada has the sword of Damocles hanging over its head? We are aware that the rights guaranteed by the charter can be violated if the correct questions are not asked in order to count, to enumerate, all rights holders, adults as well as children, given the Mahe case.

Is Statistics Canada aware of that?

[Jean-Pierre Corbeil]

When Statistics Canada receives requests, our objective is to try and respond to them. We have responded to them in the past by working with 10 federal government departments and agencies. If there are other options, other ways to respond, Statistics Canada is perfectly prepared to look at them.

[René Arseneault, Liberal, Madawaska—Restigouche, NB]

I was actually thinking of the legal aspect.

Does Statistics Canada consult constitutional lawyers? Have you received legal opinions from constitutional experts about the matter concerning us today, the provisions of section 23?

[Jean-Pierre Corbeil]

I cannot answer that question with certainty, but I don't think so.

We are in constant contact with all kinds of people all over the country. I am responsible for the linguistic statistics division. I personally have not consulted lawyers on the matter.

Statistics Canada receives a huge number of requests on all kinds of topics. With a request of this nature, our objective is to find ways to respond. If the need is clear, as is the case with section 23, Statistics Canada will find a way to respond, in collaboration with our various partners.

[René Arseneault, Liberal, Madawaska—Restigouche, NB]

I understand.

When I was very young, my mother worked for Statistics Canada. I remember the kinds of questions that were asked in the form. First of all, there were questions about salaries. Then came questions about household appliances, and so on. But I am talking about a constitutional obligation here. My colleague is certainly going to be asking you questions about it. I strongly urge you to consult with constitutional lawyers on this precise question, so that your office can shed better light on Statistics Canada's constitutional obligation, in time for the next census in 2021.

Here is my concern. If the test in 2018 is not conclusive, the questionnaires will have to be redone and, after 2021, there will still be children in minority French or minority English schools who will not have been enumerated as rights holders.

With that said, I will make way for my colleague.

[Linda Lapointe, Liberal, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Thank you for leaving me a little time, my dear colleague.

Thank you for joining us today, Mr. Corbeil.

Earlier, you talked about the best way to define rights holders. My colleague mentioned the matter too. I am sure you have suggestions to make about it. At one point, you even said that the best way to enumerate rights holders was to go through the provinces.

How would you go about that? You say that you act according to the requests you receive. Who are you going to respond to? Are you going to respond to the Standing Committee on Official Languages, if we asked you specifically in a report to make sure that people covered by section 23 are all enumerated as rights holders? Are you going to respond to the Commissioner of Official Languages? Who are you going to respond to, to make sure that all rights holders in Canada can have access to education in the language of their choice? Canada has two official languages.

[Jean-Pierre Corbeil]

Thank you for your question.

Earlier, I referred to the Elementary-Secondary Education Survey, a really important survey. Very regularly, Statistics Canada meets with each of its partners and holds discussions with them. Each year, we hold meetings with officials from all provinces and territories.

For that survey, questions are asked and data are collected directly from the provinces' administrative files.

[Linda Lapointe, Liberal, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Can that be coordinated with Statistics Canada?

[Jean-Pierre Corbeil]

That is one option. In the past, we managed to ask questions and to get the provinces to add that question to their basic questionnaire and their administrative records. That was conclusive. That is the reason why—

[Linda Lapointe, Liberal, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Could we use those data to make sure that the Supreme Court recognizes that they are rights holders?

[Jean-Pierre Corbeil]

Statistics Canada has received letters from the ministry of education in British Columbia saying that they support francophone minorities in the province in their goal of obtaining a fair and exact enumeration of rights holders. If the provinces provide such support, I assume that it should not be extremely difficult to get support from each province and territory in order to look for information pursuant to the requirements in paragraphs (1)(a) and (1)(b) of section 23 of the charter.

[Linda Lapointe, Liberal, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Denis Paradis]

We now move to Mr. Généreux.

[Bernard Généreux, Conservative, Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Corbeil.

The questions are very interesting. In your document, you say that, in 2006, there were, in Canada outside Quebec, 185,675 children between 5 and 17 years of age with at least one French-mother-tongue parent. Knowing that Canada now has 35 million people, it seems to me that that figure is not very high. Am I mistaken about that?

[Jean-Pierre Corbeil]

No, that's what it is.

But we do have to specify that we are talking about francophones outside Quebec. If you project that figure onto a population of basically one million, and you include primary and secondary aged children, that's the count of those between 5 and 17. That is perfectly within the norm.

There is one other thing that you must not forget. It is that, given the birth rate, the number of children corresponds to the one you mention. I am not saying that, in 2016, the results of the census are not going to show an increase in that number, but we are in fact talking about around 200,000 children from 5 to 17. So it reflects the reality.

[Bernard Généreux, Conservative, Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC]

What about new arrivals, people who have immigrated, who have arrived in Canada in the last 10, 15 or 20 years? Some of them spoke French at home in the countries they came from. When they answer the survey, can they say that they are rights holders even if they were not born in Canada?

[Jean-Pierre Corbeil]

Actually, that is an important question because immigration is clearly being relied upon to make more and more of a contribution to francophone communities outside Quebec. The main problem is that many of those immigrants do not have French as their mother tongue. So, they do not necessarily meet the conditions of paragraph 23(1)(a). As they were not necessarily educated in French in a primary school in Canada, they are not eligible under paragraph 23(1)(b). That said, I know that a lot of schools still take in those children of immigrants.

[Bernard Généreux, Conservative, Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC]

Statistics Canada is not a polling firm, of course. But we know that you do collect a whole lot of information. Given that we would like to find out the interests of parents, and not just those who are the rights holders, could we not just not ask them if they would be interested in sending their children to a French-language school outside Quebec, if it were possible to do so? Would a simple question like that not enable you to identify whether there is any interest?

Just now, Mr. Lefebvre was saying that we are looking for the best information possible so that, in minority settings, we can make decisions about building school or community infrastructures. We are not able to do so because we do not have all the data and we do not know the real interest. Being a rights holder is one thing, but having an interest in the francophonie is another. We know that interest in French immersion schools is growing rapidly in Canada.

So there is interest from members of the anglophone community in sending their children to school in French. If there was a simple question like that, would that not give Statistics Canada and the government a way of concluding that, in other communities in the country, not just in places where people are in a minority situation, there is an interest in everything French. I think that one of the goals of our committee is not just to find out who the rights holders really are, but also who has an interest in learning Canada's other official language. That is a basic question that I would like answered.

[Jean-Pierre Corbeil]

That is an excellent question, but, as you know, it is not as simple as that. It can be a double-edged sword. Let me give you an example. Of those outside Quebec whose first spoken official language is French, about 40% of those surveyed, including for the 2006 survey, stated that they were more comfortable communicating in English than in French. If we—

[Bernard Généreux, Conservative, Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC]

Let me interrupt you; you understand that, even if people put that as an answer in a survey, it does not mean that they may not have an interest in sending their children to French-language schools if they were asked that question.

[Jean-Pierre Corbeil]

Yes, absolutely.

[Bernard Généreux, Conservative, Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC]

My sister-in-law does not speak a word of French. She was born in Quebec but she has been living in Toronto since she was 15. Her two children have been in French immersion since elementary school. She wanted her children to learn French, something she did not do herself. But she was not a rights holder.