Evidence of meeting #74 for Official Languages in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was penalty.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Senior Counsel, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
I believe the answer is yes.
Liberal
Linda Lapointe Liberal Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC
Air Canada's non-compliance with the Official Languages Act is nonetheless a recurring thing. The committee is studying the entire matter. We are asking whether the Commissioner of Official Languages should, as he himself suggested in his report, be allowed to impose administrative monetary penalties. What do you think?
Senior Counsel, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
Would you like to respond first, Ms. Robinson-Dalpé?
Director, Advisory and Compliance, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
Thank you.
For us, the real purpose of penalties assessed against reporting public office holders is to encourage compliance. Penalties are certainly a measure that the commissioner can use, but she genuinely believes in public transparency. In her opinion, a public report is the most important tool available to her to respond to substantive violations of the Conflict of Interest Act. When she investigates a public office holder, she must then submit a report. At this time, she feels that a public report is truly the tool that represents the best sanction, as it informs people of the situation that has occurred.
Liberal
Linda Lapointe Liberal Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC
Air Canada is a public company, after all. The Commissioner of Official Languages has submitted several reports, but the nonetheless persists. We have heard several witnesses from various parties. In short, we would like both official languages to be respected.
Maybe the transparency factor works well in your case, at the Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, but I'm not certain that it is enough in the case of official languages.
Director, Advisory and Compliance, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
For us, it's really a matter of violations of deadlines. That's really administrative. The penalties are not related to substantive violations. For example, if someone breaks the rules by taking part in a discussion and putting themselves in a conflict of interest situation, we do not assess a penalty, but an investigation is conducted by the commissioner, followed by a report.
So there are really two standards.
However, the amounts must be taken into consideration. Imposing an administrative penalty of $500 against Air Canada would have no effect in my opinion.
Liberal
Linda Lapointe Liberal Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC
Earlier this week, someone told us that, if that was what it cost, the company would continue operating as usual.
For you, Mr. Bergen, you said that your office imposed fines between $50,000 and $200,000. Those are amounts that begin to hurt.
Senior Counsel, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
Yes, but I must say that that is not an administrative monetary penalty that the commissioner can impose on a company like Air Canada. Such penalties were suggested by the commissioner in 2011. She believed that it might be a good idea, for the same reasons that were mentioned by Ms. Robinson-Dalpé. In effect, it would encourage lobbyists to register correctly, within the time required under the Lobbying Act.
Allow me to continue my answer in English.
Senior Counsel, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
Under the Lobbying Act, there are offences for failure to register, lobbying while prohibited from registering, and in fact there have been prosecutions under the law. In our office, when the commissioner reaches the conclusion that there may have been an offence committed under the act, she is required under the act to refer the matter to a peace office, which are the words in the act. We refer to the RCMP here in Ottawa. In fact there have been four persons convicted of offences under the Lobbying Act in the last few years.
The first one, in 2013, was fined $7,500 for a failure to register lobbying activities. Earlier this year and last year there have been a couple of other convictions where one gentleman in Montreal was fined a total of $9,000 on four separate charges of failure to register, and here in Ottawa another fellow was fined $20,000 and a fourth gentleman was fined a grand total of $50,000 for three charges. It's under appeal now. There have been some serious penalties, but these are handed out by the courts and not the commissioner.
Conservative
The Vice-Chair Conservative Alupa Clarke
Thank you, Mr. Bergen. Ms. Lapointe's speaking time has ended. Mr. Choquette may let you continue your response.
Mr. Choquette, the floor is yours.
NDP
François Choquette NDP Drummond, QC
In effect, I'll briefly come back to what Mr. Bergen mentioned regarding the Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying of Canada.
The Lobbying Act provides for criminal penalties.
Senior Counsel, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
They're quasi-criminal penalties.
NDP
François Choquette NDP Drummond, QC
Okay, let's talk about the quasi-criminal penalties; I don't know the exact terms. In short, that exists. However, certain less serious offences could be resolved internally, through the commissioner's office. That's why, in one of the recommendations in her report in 2011, the commissioner asked to have a bit more power regarding penalties in cases that, despite being significant, did not necessarily require court or RCMP involvement and could be resolved internally.
Can you give us more details in that regard?
I think that is somewhat similar to what the Commissioner of Official Languages is seeking, namely that there be an internal process for violations of the Official Languages Act that are not criminal in nature, but that infringe upon the rights set out in the act. In such a case, it would be possible to impose an administrative monetary penalty on the person who did not comply with the Official Languages Act.
NDP
François Choquette NDP Drummond, QC
I'd like to know your opinion on what the commissioner requested in 2011.
Senior Counsel, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
She asked to be granted the power to impose administrative monetary penalties on lobbyists who did not comply with certain regulations. For instance, a consultant lobbyist must register as a lobbyist within 10 days of an agreement. That means that if it's done after 11, 15 or 20 days, that person is no longer in compliance with the Lobbying Act. In such a case, an administrative monetary penalty is useful.
We now have a compliance monitoring process. If a lobbyist registers 15 days after the 10-day period indicated in the act, we send a letter indicating the problem and asking that the individual comply with the 10-day period in the future. Following that, we monitor that person's lobbying activities for one year. That's the right way to work.
NDP
François Choquette NDP Drummond, QC
Thank you.
Ms. Robinson-Dalpé, you mentioned that, at the Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, you also had the power to impose administrative monetary penalties under very specific circumstances, such as in the case of missed deadlines, as I understand it.
Even though they're small amounts, do those penalties have positive effects? How do you use them? Is it a good tool? Does it help you?
Director, Advisory and Compliance, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
In the beginning, when I took office and the penalties began, more people did not comply with the primary deadlines, namely the obligation to file their confidential report within 60 days. We had to do a lot of work to inform reporting public office holders of this compliance requirement. Compliance with this rule is completely their responsibility. They must complete the return and send it to us.
Initially, we sent a lot of reminders. We established a process to ensure that people would be well-informed of the rules.
In our case, the commissioner normally issues a letter within two or three days following an individual's appointment or after being advised of the appointment. Thirty days after the appointment, the commissioner's office issues a notice advising public office holders that it has not received their return and that they still have 30 days to file it. We send another reminder after 50 days, again to ensure that the public office holder returns the information within the required time. It's therefore an administrative process.
Since this process was implemented, we've noticed that people are filing their confidential reports a lot more efficiently within the required time.
NDP
François Choquette NDP Drummond, QC
So, even though it's a small amount, administrative monetary penalties encourage people to comply with the deadlines.
Director, Advisory and Compliance, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
I don't know whether it's due simply to the penalty or the fact that the penalty is then made public. Many people say that they'll pay the penalty, but they wonder whether it's really necessary for it to be made public. However, the act provides that penalties must be made public.
Conservative
The Vice-Chair Conservative Alupa Clarke
Very good. Thank you, Ms. Robinson-Dalpé.
We'll now hear from Mr. Lefebvre.
Liberal
Paul Lefebvre Liberal Sudbury, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Since my colleague Mr. René Arseneault is itching to ask a question, I'll give him my speaking time. If there's any time left after that, I'll ask some questions.
Liberal
René Arseneault Liberal Madawaska—Restigouche, NB
Thank you.
I'll continue in the same vein as Mr. Choquette and follow up on Ms. Lapointe's questions.
The Commissioner of Official Languages has oversight authority over several federal departments, but does not have any coercive or dissuasive powers. In his last report, he asked us to grant him that type of power.
Let's step away from the Commissioner of Official Languages and take a look at what happens in your organizations.
If you had no coercive powers to enforce your regulations and only had the power to write reports and give written reprimands, would your work change?
Director, Advisory and Compliance, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
For my part, I don't think so. We've implemented measures that allow us to monitor continually. However, we don't represent the private sector. We're limited to reporting public office holders.
Section 19 of the Conflict of Interest Act states that compliance with the act is a condition of employment. First, we have that condition. It's in the interest of public office holders to comply with the act. For our part, we advise them of the prescribed deadlines to ensure that they fulfill their obligations under the act.