Evidence of meeting #74 for Official Languages in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was penalty.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Conservative
Bernard Généreux Conservative Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC
A complaint was filed against your office.
Senior Counsel, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
Yes.
Conservative
Bernard Généreux Conservative Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC
You are government organizations. We agree on that.
Conservative
Bernard Généreux Conservative Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC
You are there to enforce the laws that apply to you.
The Office of the Commissioner of Official Languages is also a government organization that is subject to the Official Languages Act and that, according to the special report submitted by the commissioner, wants to subject Air Canada to special penalties because the company is not complying with the Official Languages Act.
A suggestion was made that we are now examining. Instead of putting all our eggs in one basket and having a measure that only applies to Air Canada, why not include provisions in the Official Languages Act that apply to all federal organizations, including your own?
I ask you the question, and we asked it of the other witnesses as well. Do you think it would be fairer if all federal organizations subject to the Official Languages Act were treated in the same way, instead of only Air Canada suffering penalties, whether monetary or otherwise?
Director, Advisory and Compliance, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
In my opinion, I find it hard to imagine that the federal government would be penalized for violations. It must be remembered that all of the money is from the same budget in the end. The Office of the Commissioner of Official Languages is a government organization. The funds would go from one to the other and vice versa.
Conservative
Bernard Généreux Conservative Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC
I just wanted to hear you say it.
Director, Advisory and Compliance, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
But that's my personal opinion.
Conservative
Bernard Généreux Conservative Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC
So, you're telling us that the Commissioner of Official Languages would want us to consider Air Canada as still being a public institution because it's subject to the Official Languages Act. To some degree, that's what you're saying, right? Do I understand that correctly?
Director, Advisory and Compliance, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
No, not necessarily.
Conservative
Bernard Généreux Conservative Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC
I'm not trying to corner you.
Director, Advisory and Compliance, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
I understand.
However, Air Canada is currently a private company.
Conservative
Director, Advisory and Compliance, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
That would be a matter of penalizing someone externally.
In our case, we penalize individuals. It's not the federal government, but individuals who have committed a violation of our act.
Conservative
Director, Advisory and Compliance, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
It's simply that, in your hypothetical scenario, an agent of the federal government would impose a penalty on another federal organization.
Conservative
Bernard Généreux Conservative Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC
I totally agree with you that it doesn't make sense.
The idea is that the entire Canadian public service is inevitably subject to the Official Languages Act. However, it's all interrelated, in fact, so it serves no purpose for the government to penalize itself and then pay itself.
That said, the commissioner's suggestions apply only to Air Canada, which is a private company. As I understand it, VIA Rail is also subject to the Official Languages Act. However, the commissioner's suggestions rule out the possibility of penalizing VIA Rail.
Once again, I must say that I'm not defending Air Canada, to the contrary. However, why is a carrier like VIA Rail, which is also subject to the act, not penalized, but a private company subject to the act is? These organizations are both subject to the act. Is that not a form of inequity?
To my knowledge, VIA Rail is also a public carrier. I'm sure that the company has failed in the past to meet its obligations under the Official Languages Act. VIA Rail must have received complaints, just as you have received at your office, Mr. Bergen.
Mr. Bergen, you mentioned earlier that, under your current system, your commissioner was able to impose or not impose penalties. Does the commissioner have the discretion to decide whether or not a case of non-compliance warrants a monetary penalty?
I'd like to digress slightly. According to the suggestion by the Commissioner of Official Languages in his report, people would not need to substantiate the violation of the act of which they were a victim. The commissioner would be able to impose penalties even if the individual did not substantiate the offence.
Senior Counsel, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
I simply want to clarify one element: the commissioner does not have the power to impose administrative monetary penalties.
Conservative
Bernard Généreux Conservative Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC
Can you say that in English? I want to be sure I understand.
Senior Counsel, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
The commissioner does not have the power to issue fines herself.
Conservative
Senior Counsel, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
The court does. There are no administrative monetary penalties under the act.
Conservative
Bernard Généreux Conservative Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC
Earlier, though, you referred to flexibility.
Senior Counsel, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
I think it's because we're calling them fines. Usually administrative—
Conservative
Bernard Généreux Conservative Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC
One moment. I took note of it.
It's to avoid the justice system.