Official Languages Committee on March 2nd, 2018

[The Chair, Liberal, Denis Paradis]

Thank you very much, Mr. Vandal.

We will continue with Mr. Choquette.

[François Choquette, NDP, Drummond, QC]

Thank you all for being here today. Your presentations are very interesting and your experiences are truly inspiring.

My name is François Choquette and I represent the riding of Drummond. The city of Drummondville is well known for its poutine, of course. You can try it if you ever go there, although it is not very healthy. I am a French teacher by profession. So I admire what you do. Finally, as a member of the NDP, I am currently vice-chair of the Standing Committee on Official Languages.

We went to British Columbia and learned that French as a second language courses were not mandatory. Many school boards have decided not to offer them. There is no French immersion program or French-as-a-second-language course. This is a gap.

As I understand it, in Manitoba, the province or the department does not make the teaching of French as a second language compulsory, but virtually every school or school board provides it.

What is the reality? Do all children have the opportunity to do French immersion? My understanding is that about 13% of anglophones in Manitoba have access to French immersion.

Do all the others have access to French-as-a-second-language courses?

[Sandra Drzystek]

In Manitoba, we use the term “school division”. All Manitoba school divisions offer French classes. Normally, they are compulsory from grade four to grade eight. They are always optional at the secondary level. Some school divisions offer French classes from kindergarten to grade three. There are 37 school divisions in Manitoba, and 23 of them offer French immersion and French-as-a-second-language courses.

[François Choquette, NDP, Drummond, QC]

So it's mandatory up to the equivalent of secondary 2 in Quebec?

[Sandra Drzystek]

Yes.

[François Choquette, NDP, Drummond, QC]

So we are talking about grade eight. It is optional afterwards. Students can then take courses in Spanish, Arabic, Mandarin, computer science or any other subject, I suppose.

You made recommendations about the French immersion program because it is perceived as being somewhat elitist. You already talked about it. We hear the same criticism everywhere. In the west, people have said that the program is elitist, that it is the luck of the draw that determines whether you get a place, and so on.

What recommendation do you have for schools that offer an immersion program as opposed to French-as-a-second-language courses?

[Ron Cadez]

Can you clarify your question?

[François Choquette, NDP, Drummond, QC]

As I understand it, 13% of students have access to French immersion programs.

Is that correct?

[Ron Cadez]

No, that is the percentage of students across the province who choose French immersion programs. In our school board, 50% of new registrations go into immersion programs.

[Sandra Drzystek]

In 23 school divisions, all students who are interested in French immersion programs can register for them. We have the spaces we need. Some divisions do not offer French immersion, but 23 of the 37 school divisions do. The real figure is that 13% of all students are registered in the program. The difference is between the cities, the rural areas and the north. Whatever the situation, students have access to the program.

[François Choquette, NDP, Drummond, QC]

That is very important because, in British Columbia, students wanting to go into immersion cannot do so because there is no room. Here in Manitoba, that is not a problem.

[Ron Cadez]

No, it is not a problem. All students can register in an immersion program in their neighbourhood schools, if one is offered there. There is no lottery, or anything like that here.

[François Choquette, NDP, Drummond, QC]

That distinction is important to understand. The dynamics are not the same. So what would your major challenge be? Is it the quality of the teachers in the French immersion or French as a second language programs?

We have often heard that some students have gone through the entire program and spoken no more French at the end.

You talked about the need to have direct contacts, as with the student exchange programs operated by the Society for Educational Visits and Exchanges in Canada, or SEVEC, but do you have reasonably good-quality teachers?

[Jeff Anderson]

The quality of the teachers is quite good. We are very lucky here in Manitoba. The Université de Saint-Boniface offers education programs at bachelor's and master's level. So we have excellent access to professional development in French.

One of the current challenges is that the demand for teachers who can work in French exceeds the capacity of the program at the Université de Saint-Boniface to train them. So we are sometimes forced to hire other people whose French may be a little rusty. That often happens in isolated, rural areas, or when a position has to be filled in February, for example, when there are not a lot of people available on the market. Sometimes, situations like that can arise.

[The Chair, Liberal, Denis Paradis]

Thank you very much, Mr. Choquette.

Mr. Samson, you have the floor.

[Darrell Samson, Liberal, Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS]

Thank you very much.

My name is Darrell Samson. I am the only Acadian member of Parliament from Nova Scotia in Ottawa. That is a privilege. However, every privilege comes with a responsibility. I have to make sure that I contribute in francophone matters for the entire province. That was also my responsibility as the former executive director of all French schools in Nova Scotia, a position that I held for 11 years before I was elected.

My career in education lasted 30 years. At the beginning, I was responsible for core French and immersion in an English-language school board. There were no French-language school boards at that time. I even brought immersion teachers and core French teachers together so that they could start to talk to each other. It was not just the immersion classes that were considered elitist, the teachers were also. So I am offering you a little window into the future. The immersion teachers said that core French was not their problem, that they did not teach those taking it, that theirs was very difficult work and that they really had to be actors, much as you described. Even the core French teachers considered themselves inferior. I forced them into it, nicely, but successfully. The union was not happy, but they learned to live with it. Those who were qualified could teach immersion courses, but they also had to teach two core French courses, and vice versa. So those who were teaching core French also had to teach two immersion courses. That changed everything because the teachers began to talk to each other. The immersion teachers really needed core French teachers so that they could learn how to teach core French, because the approach is completely different.

None of that is my objective today.

My first reaction to your presentation can be summed up in one word: “impressive”! You have told us about your journey as anglophones and about the place you have reached today. I think you should make videos together. They would be shown all over Canada and the minister would be happy. It would also serve to put more value on immersion.

Mr. Cadez, you talked about research and you are so right. In Nova Scotia, there was a myth about French schools. Parents did not want to register their kids in a completely French school, a school with only French, because they were afraid that their children would lose their English. They were afraid that they would not be able to go to university in English or work in English. Research shows the contrary, of course. Today, moreover, not only do francophone students succeed very well in French but, in the same exams, they succeed better in English than the anglophone students. It is interesting.

You told us about another extremely interesting myth and again, you were perfectly right. You said that, if children are having difficulty, the parents think of sending them to an anglophone school. As you said, research clearly shows that children obtain much the same results in one language or another, once they possess the skills of the languages in question. It will be the same for children with learning difficulties. The worst thing about it was that the teachers were pushing the families to do so.

I am now going to ask you some quick questions, because you have gone through all this. Which positive changes have taken place over the last 20 years? What do you see on the horizon that could be improved?

[Derrek Bentley]

In Manitoba, there’s a good program called “French for Life. There are also posters all over town, on the buses and on benches. I feel that there has been a great change over the last 20 years. French is promoted to everyone as a living language. It is being done not only to the kids who have learned French at home but also to the kids learning it at school. In my opinion, that is why there is an increase in the demand and the registrations for immersion programs.

I feel that it will continue in the future. My dream is that all young people will learn French and English, that every kid will be bilingual. So there could be businesses all over the place where people would speak to me in French without my even asking whether or not the service is available in French. That is my dream. I feel that the way to make it come true is through education at school, but also, informally, through projects such as the Jeux de la francophonie canadienne and the Parlement jeunesse pancanadien.

[The Chair, Liberal, Denis Paradis]

Go ahead, Mr. Cadez.

[Ron Cadez]

I work in the same school division. When I started my career, I worked at secondary level, but, at the moment, I am working at primary level. I see a new generation coming along; I see a number of my former students, graduates from our immersion programs, now bringing their children to us.

This increase in our school populations can be attributed to the good experience the parents had in our schools when they were students. They are now choosing immersion for their children.

[The Chair, Liberal, Denis Paradis]

Thank you very much, Mr. Samson.

Your turn, Mr. Arseneault.

[René Arseneault, Liberal, Madawaska—Restigouche, NB]

Thank you for being here, gentlemen, Ms. Drzystek.

First, please excuse me for arriving 10 or 15 minutes late.

I am really full of admiration for you. In my eyes, you are like missionaries. You are anglophones and you are promoting French language and culture in areas like education.

Mr. Bentley, just now, you said that you take living in French for granted, that it is normal for you. On this committee, our concern is trying to catch children when they are very young, preparing them to go to elementary school in French and to ensure that they take it for granted.

What do you think about someone living in a francophone bubble at a very early age? Does the direction that children take in their subsequent studies, or the ease with which they can continue in French and English, depend on the fact that they have been immersed in French culture, or that they will be able to learn in French?

That was a long question. Do you want to answer it, Mr. Anderson?

[Jeff Anderson]

If I understand correctly, you are talking about children who already live in French before they get to school. Am I right?

[René Arseneault, Liberal, Madawaska—Restigouche, NB]

I am a francophone from New Brunswick. I come from Madawaska—Restigouche. Our friends from Quebec teach us that francophones outside Quebec have a minority complex. When we go to France or Quebec, some of us are embarrassed to speak French. Witnesses from British Columbia actually talked about that. It’s a fact: we have a minority complex.

But things are changing. For example, when Mr. Vandal addresses the national caucus as chair of the Liberal indigenous caucus, he speaks in English and French. Robert-Falcon Ouellette does the same, as do Mr. Samson, and Mr. Arseneault. Others do as well. It is incredible. But the fact remains that the minority complex is alive and well. It’s all about feeling comfortable speaking the language.

In your opinion, is it important for learning in French to be provided to students from an early age, to ensure that, at elementary school, and in the secondary and post-secondary studies that follow, they will be interested in continuing their education in French?

[Derrek Bentley]

As I mentioned, this is Language Security 101. The earlier you start speaking French, the more confident you will be later. Yes, we must provide opportunities to speak French at a very early age, but later as well. French must not be just spoken at school.

Even if children begin to speak French at a very early age, after grade 10, they will wonder how they can live in French in a minority situation when they have never spoken French anywhere but in school. We have to start teaching them very young to trust in the quality of their French, but they must have opportunities to speak it in places other than school. That allows them to see that they can speak French everywhere in order to break down that minority complex.

That is what I experienced too. People should be able to speak French in places other than school so that they realize that they can actually speak it, without people judging them because of their accent or the mistakes they make, and so that they see that their French belongs to them, and that is fine.

You only improve your French by practising it. We often believe that people’s French will be improved if we are constantly correcting them. Actually, I think it is the opposite. By not correcting them, and by giving them opportunities to practice, they will improve quickly. Knowing that we say “une mère” not “un mère” comes only with practice.

[René Arseneault, Liberal, Madawaska—Restigouche, NB]

Earlier, you mentioned federal aid and the need to create opportunities to live in French, outside a school context. What did you mean by that? What kind of federal aid were you talking about, and what would it be used for exactly?