Official Languages Committee on Feb. 25th, 2021

[Marc Dalton, Conservative, Pitt Meadows—Maple Ridge, BC]

Thank you very much.

I very much enjoyed your comments, Senator Joyal. We can learn a lot from you.

You underscored the importance of immigration and the demographic decline in La Belle Province. Quebec already has powers in matters of immigration.

What more can the province do? You mentioned the importance of controlling this. Doesn't the province already have control over it?

[Serge Joyal]

What you say is absolutely correct.

As you know, Quebec has had the initiative in matters of selecting immigrants since the 1978 Cullen-Couture agreement, which was renewed by minister McDougall and is still in force. This is important from two standpoints.

On the one hand, there is French-language training for immigrants. I don't know whether you are familiar with the Quebec auditor general's report on the unfortunate ineffectiveness of the French-language training programs for immigrants. In my view, responsibility for the program needs to be redefined. It's absolutely essential.

On the other hand, the Quebec government—and I'm not playing partisan politics here—has reduced the rate of immigration to Quebec. Quebec can reduce its immigration rate by disqualifying or not selecting certain applicants. But in doing so, it is reducing its relative influence in Canada, and this affects you, in the House of Commons.

I'm looking at Mr. Beaulieu. When electoral boundaries are being redistributed, the population ratios in the various regions of the country are always taken into consideration. Look what happened the last time the boundaries were redistributed. Most of the additional members were for Ontario and the western provinces, and only three for Quebec. However, in practice, what happened was not commensurate with actual population increases.

For Quebec, then, determining the quantum of immigration is a very strategic decision if it is to maintain its influence as the main centre for living in French in Canada and North America, as some witnesses said earlier. We are all aware of this. To strengthen the societal leverage of French Quebec, it is important for the population of Quebec not to decline and get steadily smaller, but rather have a steady flow of immigration that is integrated into a French-speaking community—

[Marc Dalton, Conservative, Pitt Meadows—Maple Ridge, BC]

Excuse me, I have only a few minutes left.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

You have one minute remaining.

[Marc Dalton, Conservative, Pitt Meadows—Maple Ridge, BC]

Okay. I'll ask a short question and then address Ms. Jennings.

Is it true that shortly after arriving in Quebec, many immigrants head to Toronto and Vancouver?

[Serge Joyal]

I can't give you the details, or provide interprovincial migration rates, meaning the number of immigrants who arrive in Quebec, become Canadian citizens, and after a while decide to go and settle elsewhere…

[Marc Dalton, Conservative, Pitt Meadows—Maple Ridge, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Joyal.

I have only a few seconds left and would like to ask Ms. Jennings a question.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

You have 15 seconds, Mr. Dalton.

[Marc Dalton, Conservative, Pitt Meadows—Maple Ridge, BC]

Ms. Jennings, when you came in December you were asked if the government had consulted you regarding the livre blanc and you said no. I'm just wondering if you've been contacted since that time. You made some commentary at that time.

[Marlene Jennings]

When I appeared in December, QCGN had not been consulted. However, that may have been an impetus. Since then, QCGN has had ongoing discussions with the minister's staff and at times with the minister herself.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you so much. Your time is over.

The next MP is Ms. Lattanzio for five minutes, please.

[Patricia Lattanzio, Liberal, Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

First off, I would like to thank the witnesses for being present here today. Do know that your input is critical for us.

I would like to start off by directing my questions to QCGN.

We often tend to gloss over the reality of the English minority community in Quebec. I would like for the members around this table to get a good snapshot of this English minority community in Quebec.

Ms. Jennings, I know that you did in your introductory remarks, but more specifically, can you give us examples in terms of their employment opportunities, median income, the question with regard to the retention of their schools, and factors that will assure the vitality of this English minority community? Can you give us a snapshot to the best of your ability?

Thank you.

[Marlene Jennings]

Thank you very much for your question.

We all know that being employable and being employed are key indicators and factors for ensuring the vitality of any minority community. Guess what? Here in Quebec, the major employer is the Government of Quebec. The drawbridge of that château has been pulled up against English-speaking Quebeckers. Barely 1% of the public service of Quebec are English-speakers.

Then we look to the federal government, saying that maybe we can get our jobs there. Guess what? In all of the federal institutions operating in Quebec that come under the Official Languages Act as it is right now—which is over half of them—English-speaking Quebeckers are under-represented. At Correctional Service Canada, of 3,800 employees in Quebec, 110 are English speakers.

If we look at our unemployment rate, it's higher than the majority population. Our median income is the lowest amongst all of official language minority communities in Canada. Eighteen per cent of English-speaking Quebec lives below the low-income cut-off, compared to 12% for francophones in Quebec. Primary and secondary enrolment in English schools is down 60% since the 1970s, yet our bilingualism rate is 69%. It goes as high as 82% amongst our young people.

We're graduating and we're educating them. They are fluently bilingual, but when they try to get a job here, the provincial government closes the door on them. The federal government opens it up a crack. The proposal of Minister Joly doesn't even address that issue. That's a key issue for the vitality of our community. It doesn't address any of those issues.

[Patricia Lattanzio, Liberal, Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC]

On my follow-up question, I'm going to ask you to be a little bit clairvoyant. Where do you see this community going in the next five to 10 years? What are some of the biggest challenges you foresee? It begs the question of what the Government of Canada can do to ensure its vitality.

[Marlene Jennings]

One, the first thing the Government of Canada can do is confirm linguistic duality and the equality of the two official languages, English and French.

Two, we recognize and support that French is the official language of work in the province of Quebec and that it is the common language in the public sphere. We say to the state, get out of our bedrooms and our homes, please. The language that's spoken in a home is the business of that family. The question is, what language are they speaking in the public sphere outside of the home and what language are they speaking at work? The overwhelming majority of English Quebeckers are bilingual, can work in French, and want to work, but the doors have been shut to us.

Unless the federal government addresses some of the key issues that we've talked about, I foresee a very dismal future for the English-speaking minority communities of Quebec. That's number one. Number two is that if our own provincial government continues to refuse to address these issues and instead makes us a scapegoat, I see an even more dismal future.

[Patricia Lattanzio, Liberal, Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC]

Mr. Chair, my next question is for—

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Ms. Lattanzio, I'm sorry, but you have no speaking time left.

[Patricia Lattanzio, Liberal, Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC]

Thank you. I hope I'll have more time later.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Time flies.

Mr. Beaulieu has the floor for the next five minutes.

[Mario Beaulieu, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

Good afternoon.

Ms. Jennings spoke earlier about equality of status. Outside Quebec, English is the acknowledged common language, the language of integration for immigrants. Allophone language transfers are overwhelmingly towards English, perhaps as high as 99%. Each year, the assimilation of francophones outside Quebec grows apace.

In Quebec, it's the other way around. Anglophone educational institutions are overfunded, at both the primary and secondary levels. Anglophone CEGEPs receive approximately 17% of the funding, even though only 8.1% of the students' mother tongue is English. In university, the gap is even wider.

Without following the lead of what is done in English Canada for francophones, don't you think it would be equitable to strike a better balance? Bill 101 has always aimed at maintaining anglophone institutions, but for anglophones, not for the entire population, because that would promote language transfers towards English.

What's your view of this, Ms. Jennings?

[Marlene Jennings]

To begin with, I don't think the anglophone community should be used as a soccer ball to promote identity politics.

I further believe that the education system under anglophone school boards in Quebec is limited to primary and secondary under section 23 of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms. All the data, year after year, show that our fifth-grade secondary students achieve the best results on the compulsory provincial examinations. We have therefore proved that we are capable of teaching French properly, and 82% of our cohort of young people are perfectly bilingual.

[Mario Beaulieu, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

That's true, but only in Montreal.

[Marlene Jennings]

When these young people become adults, it's up to them to decide in which language they wish to pursue their education. I began university at McGill and did complete my degree. In my 30s, when I decided to return to school, I chose the Université du Québec à Montréal. I was an adult. If I were to adopt your point of view and the ideology you are propounding, I should have kept to anglophone postsecondary institutions because my primary and secondary education was in English.

[Mario Beaulieu, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

Ms. Jennings, that's not what I said at all.

The very fact that there are anglophone institutions that can meet the needs of the anglophone community is already much more generous than what is happening in English Canada for francophones. Wanting equity and equality does not amount to playing soccer.

I'll give you another example.

We know that to maintain the demographic weight of francophones in Quebec, newcomers need to integrate into Quebec society, with language transfers proportional to the demographic weight of francophones. Whenever newcomers settle in a country, it's only natural for them to integrate with the majority.

Eighty-five per cent of newcomers go to Montreal, and when they do they tend to gravitate towards the English Canadian majority. With respect, that's why French should be the common language, the official language, and the language of inclusion for everyone, including anglophones.

We fully agree with maintaining anglophone institutions to help the anglophone community to thrive.

You said that you agreed that French should be the common language. That means that it is only natural, even for Anglophones, for French to be used as the common language, which is to say—

[Marlene Jennings]

Yes, in the public space.