Official Languages Committee on April 29th, 2021

[Mario Beaulieu, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

I'd like to give Ms. Meggs a chance to answer my last question.

In promoting institutional bilingualism, federal language policy constantly conveys the message that English is an official language. Doesn't that undermine the Quebec government's effort to include and integrate newcomers?

[Anne Meggs]

I think that's true. The Charter of the French Language and the Canada-Quebec Accord acknowledge the importance of that aspect. I might even say that the Canada-Quebec Accord somewhat contradicts the Official Languages Act because it recognizes the distinct character of Quebec society and the need for measures to help immigrants acquire the French language and culture in Quebec.

Quebec wants to convey the message that French is the language that will promote integration, inclusion and active participation in Quebec society. We want a common language, and that's French. However, English does occupy a very important position and exercises a very strong power of attraction.

In addition, temporary immigration is now surpassing permanent immigration. People can now enter the country without meeting any language requirements. They may study and work in English for years and then apply for permanent residence.

The federal policy will definitely undermine Quebec's efforts as a result.

[Mario Beaulieu, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

I'd like to put the same question to the FTQ representatives.

We want to make French the common language in the workplace. So do you think the federal approach to institutional bilingualism undermines francization in the workplace?

[Denis Bolduc]

I didn't understand the question because I lost my Internet connection.

[Mario Beaulieu, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

We want to make French the common language in the workplace. Don't the federal government's efforts to promote institutional bilingualism and English-language services undermine the francization of the workplace? Aren't these two contrasting approaches?

[Gilles Grondin]

Allow me to answer your question, Mr. Bolduc.

That of course causes considerable confusion in people's minds. From the outset, that confusion establishes a dynamic that's hard to change when you impose French in the workplace. That's the first thing I can say on that subject. It does indeed prevent francization in certain respects.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you, Mr. Grondin.

I'd like to ask the clerk to check to see if Mr. Bolduc is having technical difficulties to ensure he can continue answering questions during the next round.

Ms. Ashton, go ahead for two and a half minutes.

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill—Keewatinook Aski, MB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

My question is for Ms. Meggs.

What do you think the government can do to promote the integration of newcomers into minority language communities? What can be done to make them want to learn and preserve French, and then to instil that desire in their children?

[Anne Meggs]

I have to say that's a major challenge. To begin with, children born to francophone parents outside Quebec are starting to opt for English. So it's hard to imagine how newcomers can settle in francophone communities outside Quebec and live fully in French there.

Furthermore, that was already a challenge when we passed the French Language Services Act in Ontario. We wanted to make sure the services we had just established, in some instances against the wishes of Ontario officials, would be used. We targeted francophones with a campaign entitled, "Le français, je m'en sers," to encourage them to choose French.

We have to make sure that ties are established among groups that defend French and newcomers. Is it up to the federal government to do that, or should each province be encouraged to do so? Many of the services offered to newcomers are the province's responsibility. That's often the case in immigration. Whether it's getting a work permit, a driver's licence or health services, for example, the situation isn't always easy. Apart from Quebec, there are few provinces where that can be done in French. It's a challenge.

However, when the French Language Services Act came into force, we found solutions so that those services could be provided, even remotely, if necessary. For example, if no bilingual experts were available in Liquor Control Board of Ontario stores, people could use a telephone that was made available to them to call an expert for advice on what wine they should drink with their meal.

Thanks to teleworking, you can find various ways to encourage French-language services. You have to be innovative.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you very much, Ms. Meggs and Ms. Ashton.

There are two five-minute speaking turns left in this round.

This time it's up to Mr. Godin to start.

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

You have the right speaking sequence, Mr. Chair.

Incidentally, I didn't intend any lack of respect toward the chair when I spoke earlier. I was simply trying to clarify matters so all my colleagues would know I was paying attention to the conduct of this meeting. There was some confusion about the speaking order, but that's not my responsibility.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

No need to apologize.

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

I want to thank the representatives of the three organizations here present. Thank you for taking part in our study.

I'd just like to recall that this study concerns government measures to protect and promote French in Quebec and Canada. However, I sincerely think we're evading the issue here. We're coming to the conclusion that the decline of French is a problem in Quebec, but I don't think we can manage that decline across the country. Measures will be taken under the Official Languages Act and the white paper to protect the equality of the two official languages. However, in considering the situation as a whole, at the national level, aren't we straying from the issue, which is the need to protect and promote French in Quebec?

I'd like Mr. Leckey to talk to us about the Charter and the legal principles pertaining to English and French.

Mr. Leckey, do you sincerely think we can find solutions for promoting and protecting French in Quebec by adopting an overall perspective?

[Prof. Robert Leckey]

Would you please repeat the question?

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

If we consider the rights of anglophones and francophones from an overall perspective, in the context of the Official Languages Act, do you think we can solve the problem of French in Quebec, that is to say, the issue of the promotion and protection of the French language in Quebec?

[Prof. Robert Leckey]

I don't have a crystal ball, and I don't think any government can come up with a permanent solution because this is a complex, multigenerational problem. I don't think the idea is to find a single solution. Many actions will have to be taken to promote French in both Quebec and the minority language communities outside Quebec.

The starting point, as I see it, is obviously the constitutional framework and the equality of status of the two official languages. The Parliament of Canada, thus far, may have established a framework for the application of those principles across the country. My objective today wasn't necessarily to predict the outcomes of one policy or another but to highlight the scope of the proposed changes to that known and established framework. I encourage you to ensure that the changes you propose and put forward are the product of informed choices.

The issue, in my mind, was the extent to which the changes proposed to protect French in Quebec might risk diverting us from the equality of status guaranteed by the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms and implemented under the present act. That was my thinking.

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Leckey. You're encouraging us to be disciplined and respectful of the Constitution. However, I think we have to reflect on the specific measures that should be taken to find solutions to the problems. We have linguistic minorities in Canada, French is declining in Quebec, and these are two completely different problems.

I'd like to hear Ms. Meggs' comments.

You mentioned efficiency. You said we have no way to protect Quebec francophones. I share your opinion on that point. I'd like to know what potential solutions you propose to restore French to its rightful position in Quebec.

[Anne Meggs]

The conclusion I've reached is that the measures the federal government has put in place to ensure respect for both official languages must not undermine Quebec's efforts to protect French.

As regards the Official Languages Act, where the ambiguity begins, as Mr. Bolduc said, is where you say that the status of English in Quebec and that of French outside Quebec are equivalent. There is no such equivalence, and no one can convince me of the contrary. I've been dealing with statistics for years, and I can tell you that's not the case.

As Dean Lecky said, we definitely have to be attentive, but attentive to the way the Official Languages Act is administered by the federal government so it doesn't undermine…

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you, Ms.Meggs. Time is up. I allowed you a few seconds to wrap up, but I have to stop you there. Mine is a thankless task.

I now turn the floor over to Mr. Lefebvre for five minutes.

[Paul Lefebvre, Liberal, Sudbury, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thanks as well to all the witnesses who have joined us here today. Their remarks are very interesting.

I live in the Sudbury region, but I'm originally from Kapuskasing. I have to admit that my family and I are the fifth generation of transplants from Quebec and Acadie living in northern Ontario. My children and I attended French schools.

The first time I went to Montreal, I was a student at the University of Ottawa, and I went to see a Canadiens game at the Forum. They unfortunately lost to the Flyers again that time. I'm still saddened by the memory. On my second visit to Montreal, I was with my wife, and we attended a Francis Cabrel concert. We Franco-Ontarians live in French, but, as Mr. Godin said, we have a lot of issues.

I think the study's really fascinating. We obviously consider Quebec the francophone hub of North America. However, I hear our Quebec friends say that they have problems too and wonder how we can address them. That's the question.

In Ontario, when we Canadian francophones get up in the morning, we know we have a fight ahead of us, as my friend Darryl Samson used to say. If we want to retain our language and culture, we have to fight. When we go to bed at night, we know we'll have to fight again tomorrow.

Like Mr. Arseneault, I studied law in the common law section of the law faculty at the University of Ottawa. Although I'm a tax lawyer, not a constitutionalist, I acknowledge the importance of the entire constitutional aspect that enabled me to study in French and my children to be educated in French. It's harder at the postsecondary level, however, as a result of the division of powers and the fact that education is more a provincial than a federal jurisdiction, although the federal government supports postsecondary education.

My first question is for Mr. Leckey. I'll question the other witnesses if I have time.

The purpose of Canada's present language rights system is to protect French in particular, and we've established French-language schools to protect French in Canada. As regards the case law on language rights, particularly respecting schools and section 23 of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms, can we say that the symmetry the Supreme Court has adopted in interpreting language rights has benefited Canada's francophones?

[Prof. Robert Leckey]

I agree with you that the Supreme Court's broad interpretation of section 23 of the Canadian Charter has largely benefited francophone minority communities outside Quebec.

Incidentally, the judgment rendered in Quebec last week on the Act respecting the laicity of the state surprised some people, who apparently hadn't followed case law developments, particularly the Supreme Court of Canada's judgment actually acknowledging the anglophone minority's right to manage its institutions. I think this jurisprudence has mainly benefited francophone communities.

[Paul Lefebvre, Liberal, Sudbury, ON]

If you look at the case law across the country, you see challenges. Some provinces don't want to recognize, and still deny, those quasi-constitutional section 23 rights to an education in French. The situation is really tough, especially in the western provinces, where it's been a longstanding struggle.

In some regions I've visited, many francophone families would like their children to attend a French-language school in their neighbourhood without having to face a one-hour bus ride to get to their school. Access to francophone schools is a major challenge.

Do you have anything to add, Mr. Leckey?

[Prof. Robert Leckey]

I'd simply like to point out that the right of access to justice in English is still not guaranteed in Quebec.

Although you can be served in English in a store on Sainte-Catherine Street, the right of access to justice in English isn't necessarily always recognized in the province's courts.

I know that members of the committee say English isn't threatened in the province of Quebec, but there's currently no guarantee that an anglophone clerk or judge will be on hand for English cases in Quebec, even though that's a right provided for under the Constitution Act,1867.

[Paul Lefebvre, Liberal, Sudbury, ON]

That's interesting. Thank you very much.

I'd like to ask more questions, but that'll have to wait.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you very much.

Dear witnesses and members of the committee, we have completed one round of questions. We have 35 minutes left. I propose that we have a round of questions in which each party represented on the committee is allotted seven minutes. You may share that time with other colleagues. Then we will adjourn.

Mr. Godin, you have the floor for seven minutes. Please let me know if you wish to share your speaking time with someone else.