Official Languages Committee on Oct. 22nd, 2024

[Yves Lévesque]

It’s hard to—

[Darrell Samson, Liberal, Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS]

I’m just looking for a ballpark answer. It could be 5%, give or take. It can be 70%.

[Yves Lévesque]

A lot of education is done in kindergarten, even in day care. It's estimated that about 60% of francophone families in Ontario are exogamous, so I would say that 60% of the children entering the schools don’t speak French to begin with.

[Darrell Samson, Liberal, Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS]

I suspect you may agree with me.

In conclusion, that’s why more money should be allocated to francization. We already give money to teach English as a second language to immigrants. We also need to allocate funding to teaching French as a first language to the children of rights holders. It’s not complicated.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Thank you, Mr. Samson. It’s really not complicated.

Mr. Beaulieu, you now have the floor for two and a half minutes.

[Mario Beaulieu, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

Thank you.

Earlier, I asked some questions about the right to redress. We discussed acknowledging the wrongs done. Mr. Foucher, I believe you wanted to weigh in on the issue.

[Pierre Foucher]

Yes, thank you.

Firstly, the concept of redress already exists in case law, and it is mentioned in every Supreme Court ruling. Secondly, I agree with Mr. Lévesque that seeking comprehensive redress in court would be an extraordinary undertaking. The idea has come up, but given that judges prefer to proceed with caution, ruling on cases one at a time, I am not certain that an undertaking of that scale would be successful.

[Mario Beaulieu, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

Thank you.

Given the issues with transportation, would you say that French immersion schools are competing with French-language schools to some extent? I am sure that in some cases, parents will choose to send their child to a French immersion school rather than subject them to a long commute. What is the impact of that?

[Robert Demers]

I can answer that question. There is definitely an impact. The number of immersion schools is growing, so there is direct competition with our schools. Immersion schools are regional, but their catchment areas are smaller than those of our schools. Yes, they are competing with us.

[Mario Beaulieu, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

I know that when the government reformed the Official Languages Act, it announced increased funding for immersion schools, but there was no discussion of schools by and for francophones.

Do you think it would be a good idea to instead increase funding for schools by and for francophones?

[Robert Demers]

Absolutely.

[Mario Beaulieu, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

I have heard that immersion schools actually contribute to the assimilation of francophones.

[Robert Demers]

Absolutely.

[Mario Beaulieu, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

There you have it.

You spoke extensively about the teacher shortage. Does a significant portion of your teachers come from Quebec?

[Yves Lévesque]

Obviously, Quebec has always been a place where you can recruit teachers, but it seems to me that solutions have to be local, which is why it's important to increase our university-level training in Ontario. I think the capacity may be there, but a lot of teachers definitely do come from Quebec.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Thank you. We're well over time.

Ms. Ashton, the floor is yours for two and a half minutes.

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill—Keewatinook Aski, MB]

Thank you very much.

Thank you very much. I just wanted to comment briefly on the subject of immersion that my colleague Mr. Beaulieu raised. I wanted to note that we have a labour shortage, a shortage of French immersion teachers, in our regions here in western Canada. We're also seeing teachers leave the immersion system to teach in the French-language school system. Consequently, solutions to the labour shortage should apply to the two systems, both of which need educators.

I'd also say that there's a free flow between the two school systems. For example, many children stay in the French-language school system until high school, then enter immersion. Conversely, other students start in immersion and then continue in the other system. I would just note that there are a lot of similarities between the two systems, including a genuine shared labour shortage.

Mr. Lévesque and Mr. Demers, I'd like to read you a very interesting comment from your website: “How to help: As elected school board trustees in Ontario, taxpayers, or parents in our school system, you can impact the future of French-language Catholic education by raising awareness among your local elected officials at the provincial, municipal, and federal levels.” You raise several points there. I think it's great that you give such direct advice. You also clearly state that you need support and commitment from the political class to meet the challenges you're facing. You can't just accept that things are the way they are and let the trustees of the two school systems sort out their problems. It's up to all of us to act, and I'm very pleased that you also mentioned the federal government.

I have very little time left, but I just want to give you another chance to tell us clearly how important it is for the federal government to play a role in addressing the labour shortage and these training needs. It isn't solely up to the provincial governments or universities to play that role; it's really a federal government responsibility as well, since we know that French is in trouble and steps need to be taken to slow its decline.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Thank you, Ms. Ashton. You took nearly three minutes to ask your question.

Before briefly suspending so we can welcome the next witness panel, I want to remind the witnesses in this first panel not to hesitate to send us any additional information they would like to forward to us. For example, they could provide us with answers to the excellent question that Ms. Ashton just asked, among other things.

Mr. Foucher, I'm aware you're no longer a member of the bar and that you therefore may not provide legal advice, but perhaps you can guide us through the legal landscape of facts and logical arguments that don't constitute legal opinion. Should you feel that any additional comments might assist the committee in drafting its report, please don't be shy.

Gentlemen, thank you for being here. Your testimony was really interesting and will definitely help us as we draft our report.

I will briefly suspend now so we can welcome the next witness panel.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

We will resume.

We are continuing our study of the minority-language education continuum, and we now welcome our second panel of witnesses.

We have Stephanie Hickey, teacher, as an individual; and Nicole Nicolas, principal of the École communautaire la Voie du Nord. Both are joining us by video conference.

Ladies, I imagine this is your first appearance before the Standing Committee on Official Languages. I hope you aren't nervous because you're in good hands here. This is the best committee on Parliament Hill, and our members are exceptional.

We will allow each of you five minutes to introduce yourselves or to outline what you want to tell us. I am very strict about time. Please don't be insulted if I cut you off after five minutes. You may continue your remarks in response to the questions you'll be asked along the way.

Mrs. Hickey, we will begin with you, and I now turn the floor over to you for exactly five minutes.

[Stephanie Hickey, Teacher, As an Individual]

Mr. Chair and members of the committee, first, I want to thank you for welcoming me as a witness. Since I feel a bit stressed, I'm going to rely on the notes I have before me.

My name is Stephanie Hickey, and I am a teacher, but, above all, I am the mother of four Franco-Manitoban children. I have been living in Thompson, Manitoba, for nearly three years. This is my second time in Thompson because, as a result of my husband's career, we've travelled extensively across the country. One of the things we look for before settling somewhere is French-language preschool and school services so our children can be in French immersion. That's really important. Both of us are francophones from the eastern part of the country, but western Canada is now our home.

Preschool education is the first point I want to raise. I have one child in preschool, and, every time we move, it's hard for us to find a French-language day care or learning centre, something that's very important for us. We're lucky because, Les Louveteaux, a francophone day care centre, has been attached to our beautiful school, La Voie du Nord, in Thompson, since 2018. It isn't always easy to find a space because they're very limited as a result of many factors, including the labour shortage, of course. It's very hard to find certified francophone employees.

I've also been sitting on the day care centre's administrative committee for a year. We lost the centre's management staff, but management ultimately wound up in the hands of our parents committee, which consists of volunteers who work from Monday to Friday and are then responsible for the centre's human resources, hiring, interviews and finances. It has been very difficult, and I've been on the committee for only a year. The situation has lasted for more than two years. This is something that the parents set up, but we had to delegate the centre's management to the Fédération des parents de la francophonie manitobaine, which is now responsible for it.

The situation is difficult because there have been many personnel changes. Some employees leave. When I was there, we had to hire an anglophone director and several anglophone employees because, otherwise, we might have had to shut down and lose our day care service. We're gradually seeing improvements. Finally, after two and a half years, we opened the nursery this month. I forgot to mention that we now have 16 preschool children and four in the nursery. We also have six employees on the day care team, five of whom are francophones. So we've managed to find more francophone staff, but we still have constant turnover. It's never stable, and we know there's always a chance we'll lose employees. In addition, only two of those employees, an anglophone and a francophone, are certified.

One of the points I want to make is that virtual training is the only way for day care employees to be trained in French. It can be tough at times because they all have to work and have other obligations.

I've probably forgotten to mention some things, but I just want to say this: As a teacher, I see children who leave day care and arrive here in kindergarten. We unfortunately don't have a pre-kindergarten program. I would like it if we could get the necessary funding to create one because that would help improve the children's language skills before they enter kindergarten. For the moment, as one of the witnesses said earlier, a large percentage of children who enter kindergarten don't understand and can't speak the language. Consequently, we spend a lot of time in kindergarten teaching them the language. Before grade one, they aren't ready to learn advanced literacy or numeracy skills because they spend so much time learning the language.

In conclusion, I would simply like to say, as a mother, that this is having a significant impact on families.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Thank you, Mrs. Hickey.

Nicole Nicolas, you have the floor for five minutes.

[Nicole Nicolas, Principal, École communautaire la Voie du Nord]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Members of the committee, I want to thank you for this invitation to appear before you and to draw your attention to the current challenges we're facing in education in French as a first language in an official language minority community.

First of all, Thompson is a northern Manitoba community located some 760 kilometres from the city of Winnipeg, a distance that can be covered in approximately 8 hours by automobile and an hour and a half by plane.

This year, the École communautaire La Voie du Nord welcomed 106 students from the city of Thompson and one from the community of Paint Lake, which is located in Paint Lake Provincial Park. Our team consists of 20 people: a school principal, a special education teacher who also works as a guidance counsellor, 10 teachers and eight support staff members. Of our student population, 77% come from exogamous families, 28% are newcomer students and 10% are indigenous students.

Our parents want their children to be proud of their Franco-Manitoban language and culture when they complete their education. Newcomer parents and non-rights-holder parents also want their children to be able to identify as francophones. These parents recognize the importance of bilingualism in Canada and a high-quality education in French.

We have to face many challenges as a francophone school in an official language minority community in northern Manitoba.

Recruiting and retaining francophone teachers who want to work in the north are our greatest challenges. This has a direct impact on student learning and on the development of staff members. For example, as a result of a teacher shortage last year, 30% of my time, and that of our special education and guidance counsellor, was devoted to teaching. Consequently, students didn't always receive the attention they needed to further their education, and teachers didn't always get the support and feedback they needed to develop professionally in order to meet the needs of our students, particularly those with special needs. As a result of that additional workload, staff was not always able to consult me or receive my support.

It's also important to note that, for those same reasons, the invaluable moments of collaboration for teachers that occur during the school day, and are designed to further our teachers' professional development, rarely occurred. Those moments of collaboration are important and invaluable; they enable us to come together as a professional learning community team, to engage in professional reading, to review our literary and numerical knowledge and to model teaching best practices.

We currently have no one to replace a teacher who becomes ill and goes on extended sick leave or a female teacher who takes maternity leave.

We also have to overcome the major challenge of supporting and mentoring newcomer teachers who have no experience of the Canadian education system. They find themselves in classrooms as permanent teachers, even though there are major differences between our education system and the ones they have known. For example, inclusion, differentiated instruction, adaptation and modification are approaches with which they may not necessarily be familiar. Furthermore, virtually most of those teachers aren't capable of teaching English starting at grade four. This year, as a result of the teacher shortage, we have two individuals who have a limited teaching licence because they haven't taken the university courses they need to do the job.

Consequently, our students may not complete their school year at the expected level in our curricula. If this alarming situation continues, our children may not receive the education that they deserve and that their parents expect. They need that education in order to pursue the post-secondary studies required to fill jobs in the fields of health, technology, science, mathematics and, of course, education.

In conclusion, I want to thank you for your attention to the challenges we face in education in the north and in an official language minority community. Thanks as well for your work on the important issue of the education of our children and our Franco-Manitoban and Canadian youth.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Thank you, Ms. Nicolas.

We will now begin the first round of questions, for which each political party will have six minutes.

Let's go to the western Canadian francophonie and to the Conservative Party: Mr. Dalton, you have the floor for six minutes.

[Marc Dalton, Conservative, Pitt Meadows—Maple Ridge, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Ms. Nicolas and Mrs. Hickey, thank you for your testimony, which I appreciate. School sector representatives sometimes give much more general testimony, but, in this instance, you've focused on the smallest communities. That's very important.

Ms. Nicolas, are student numbers at your school stable? Do you have a recruitment problem? You mentioned newcomers. How are they fitting into the student body?

[Nicole Nicolas]

The student population is actually increasing at our school. We had 77 students three or four years ago but now we have 106. Ours is one of the schools with the fastest-rising number of students in our school division.