Evidence of meeting #115 for Official Languages in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was teachers.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Conservative
Marilyn Gladu Conservative Sarnia—Lambton, ON
You said a mechanism is needed for people who are not rights holders. Could you elaborate on that please?
Retired Professor, As an Individual
Essentially, referring once again to what the courts have said, the ministries of education can give the school boards the responsibility to make that decision. If people want to attend French-language schools, they can do so. That is also the case in Ontario. Admission committees make decisions about individuals who are not rights holders. Governments can do that and most have done so, either by delegating that responsibility or by adopting policies based on section 23 criteria to extend that right. For example, if someone isn't a Canadian citizen but is French-speaking, they could be eligible. So there is a framework for the criteria.
Further, the federal government must base its funding on everyone, including both rights holders and those who are not rights holders but are granted permission to attend French-language schools.
Conservative
Marilyn Gladu Conservative Sarnia—Lambton, ON
If the government doesn't fund them adequately, it is actually violating the rights they have in the charter. Is that your view?
Retired Professor, As an Individual
Once those people are admitted to French-language schools, they actually become rights holders by operation of a section 23 provision. So the answer to your question is yes.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal René Arseneault
Thank you, Mr. Foucher and Ms. Gladu.
The second question will be from the Liberals.
Mr. Lightbound, you have the floor for six minutes.
Liberal
Joël Lightbound Liberal Louis-Hébert, QC
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
Greetings to all the witnesses.
Professor Foucher, thank you for joining us.
My first question follows in part from what my colleague Ms. Gladu said. Like the good law student I was, I was taking notes during your presentation. If I am not mistaken, the last point you wanted to make was about the impacts of the education continuum. So I would like to give you the chance to continue talking about that and tell us what those impacts are.
Retired Professor, As an Individual
I think the impacts are significant and could provide a basis for expanding the scope of section 23, as they pertain to achieving the goals of primary and secondary education.
For example, it could certainly be argued that effective action is needed at the preschool level in order to generate rights holders, give them access to instruction and ensure that students who attended preschool in French and go on to attend French-language schools receive support and a certain training. I am not an education specialist, but I imagine there are special programs for that. That would be part of the concept of equal quality.
Post-secondary education is related to community development. Something occurred to me while I was listening to the AFOCSC representatives. There is a handful of people who argue that education faculties should be recognized under section 23 because they are essential for training the teachers we need to provide education of equal quality. That is an argument circulating among francophone lawyers outside Quebec, but it has never been tested in court.
Liberal
Joël Lightbound Liberal Louis-Hébert, QC
That makes sense and I understand your argument.
At a recent committee meeting, we did in fact hear that admission to education programs is in free fall. If I am not mistaken, that was in New Brunswick. That itself is an existential threat to French-language education in the medium and long term.
Depending on case law developments, do you think that section 23 will one day also apply to preschool and post-secondary education?
Retired Professor, As an Individual
Preschool will likely be covered by section 23.
With respect to post-secondary education, it's somewhat debatable. As I mentioned, you can't assume that all post-secondary education programs or institutions will be covered by section 23. When you look at the history of section 23 case law, it's clear that this was not necessarily the intention of its authors. As I said, the concept can be applied to faculties of education or certain faculties whose services are required to ensure the quality of education. I don't think we can yet claim that the courts will accept that all homogeneous post-secondary institutions be covered by section 23.
Liberal
Joël Lightbound Liberal Louis-Hébert, QC
I'd like to get back to what you said to my colleague Ms. Gladu about rights holders. If I'm not mistaken, you referred to the most recent Supreme Court decision in this area, Commission scolaire francophone des Territoires du Nord-Ouest v. Northwest Territories (Education, Culture and Employment). The decision effectively broadened the notion of rights holders.
Are you satisfied with this broader scope? In your opinion, what effect might it have in the longer term?
Retired Professor, As an Individual
It should have a positive effect. I hope that all education ministries have taken note of the decision and are implementing it. As we know, it took many rulings following the 1990 decision in Mahé v. Alberta for education ministries to understand that school boards have to be established where the number of rights holders warrants it. That problem has now been addressed.
It may take some time for it to be embedded system-wide, but yes, there will be a positive impact. As you know, and as all committee members and the general public know, there are some aberrations. For example, it's hard to understand why someone from the Congo who has come to the Northwest Territories to work and whose second language is French can't attend a French-language school. It just doesn't make sense.
Liberal
Liberal
Joël Lightbound Liberal Louis-Hébert, QC
Very good. In your opening remarks, you talked about the modernized Official Languages Act. In your opinion, does the act adequately ensure that funding transferred to the provinces and territories is directed to minority school boards?
Retired Professor, As an Individual
Ultimately, everything will depend on the regulations. The Official Languages Commissioner has already mentioned this, and your committee could as well. The government is in the process of developing regulations on the accountability mechanisms. To date, I'm not convinced that these mechanisms are sufficiently effective. Hopefully, the regulations will solve the problem. We'd need to see the regulations, but there aren't any at the moment.
Liberal
Joël Lightbound Liberal Louis-Hébert, QC
Is there anything you would like to see in the regulations that would reassure you that the funds are being used appropriately?
Retired Professor, As an Individual
First of all, the funds would have to be earmarked in a specific and well-targeted way, so that they don't disappear into the provinces' consolidated funds. There would also have to be consequences for non-compliance. The federal government could also fund school boards directly, without going through education ministries. Other legal experts have suggested this, outside Quebec, where it already exists. To my knowledge, there is nothing preventing the federal government from sending funds directly to minority school boards.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal René Arseneault
Thank you, Mr. Foucher and Mr. Lightbound.
Mr. Beaulieu, from the Bloc Québécois, you have six minutes.
Bloc
Mario Beaulieu Bloc La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you to the witnesses for taking part in this meeting.
Mr. Foucher, you say that the federal government could transfer funds directly to official language minority school boards, perhaps under certain conditions, in all provinces except Quebec. I agree with that, but I'd like you to tell me how you came to that conclusion.
Retired Professor, As an Individual
It's due to the fact that Quebec has a regulation for organizations receiving over 50% of their funding. They have to get authorization from cabinet and the lieutenant governor in council, in other words from the executive branch in Quebec.
Bloc
Mario Beaulieu Bloc La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC
Thank you.
Mr. Demers and Mr. Lévesque, from the Association franco-ontarienne des conseils scolaires catholiques, you mentioned equity. Do you feel there is equity between francophone and anglophone schools in Ontario? Can you tell us more about that?
October 22nd, 2024 / 11:30 a.m.
Executive Director, Ontario French Catholic School Trustees Association
The quick answer is no. Access to services is a common problem. You have to understand that francophone schools in Ontario, be they public or Catholic, are what I would consider regional schools. To get to school in the morning, students have to travel 30 to 45 minutes by bus, sometimes even longer, and the same amount of time to get back home. French-speaking communities don't have neighbourhood schools, whereas all English-speaking communities do.
Is there equal access to education? The answer is no. Francophone school boards should be able to establish institutions to serve their students more quickly, throughout the province. Obtaining sufficient funding from the government to build the infrastructure required to meet the needs of francophones is an ongoing challenge. This worsens the inequity when it comes to access to education.
Bloc
Mario Beaulieu Bloc La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC
Would you say that, right now, things are moving in the right direction, or is the inequity stagnant?
Executive Director, Ontario French Catholic School Trustees Association
At this point, we can't say things are getting better. I wouldn't say school construction has stagnated over the last four or five years, but it has slowed down. When you don't build enough schools, you have fewer services to offer students. Ontario's French-speaking population continues to grow, even though it's not at the same pace as the general English-speaking population. Schools aren't being built fast enough to keep pace. As a result, students have to choose between attending their local English-language schools or travelling long distances by bus to attend French-language schools. Often, parents choose to enrol their children in local schools, meaning faster assimilation and increased service inequity. I'd say, then, that things aren't getting better. There are still issues when it comes to schools being built.
Bloc
Mario Beaulieu Bloc La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC
Given what happened in the past with the adoption of Regulation 17, for instance, which prohibited the teaching of French in Ontario for quite some time, do you think francophones should be entitled to reparations for the harm done? In my opinion, it would be impossible to right all those wrongs. Having said that, I think there was an apology issued regarding Regulation 17, but not much has been said about reparations for harm.
You said earlier that immediate steps should be taken to address the underfunding, but there doesn't seem to be a desire to move in that direction.