Official Languages Committee on Nov. 19th, 2024

[Ahdithya Visweswaran]

I went through French immersion. After Grade 12, I was able to decide whether I was going to continue my studies in French or English. In the case of Campus Saint‑Jean, the French campus of the University of Alberta, it's often said that 60% of students went through French immersion. So the demand is high among young people who started with French as a second language and who want to pursue post-secondary studies in French.

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

However, I'm told that the problem at the post-secondary level is that French-language programs aren't complete.

Is that correct?

[Nicole Thibault]

It depends on the field. Whatever the case may be, there are fewer choices, and you may have to go to another province to find certain courses in French.

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

In terms of immersion programs, do English school boards compete with French school boards? We're talking about two different worlds here. Is there any competition between them?

[Nicole Thibault]

My answer is no, even though that may be the case in small communities.

Think of a family that wants to choose a French-language school as a rights holder. If there is no French-language school in or around the neighbourhood, those people could choose a school that's nearby, that's part of an English school board and offers a French immersion program.

For our part, we insist on the fact that these are really two paths. Our organization is called “Canadian Parents for French”, not “Canadian Parents for French immersion”. When we advise parents, we recommend that they seek the best possible quality of French. If people are rights holders, we suggest that they opt for the French-language program, but, if not, we recommend the best possible French program for them, which is immersion.

The problem in small communities is that some rights holders haven't had the opportunity to use French and have a natural mastery of it. That may be a challenge that needs to be addressed through francization.

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

Thank you, Ms. Thibault. As Mr. Babin said in his presentation, unfortunately, students often represent dollar signs for school boards.

I would like to ask you a question about education. Is there a shortage of French teachers?

[Ahdithya Visweswaran]

I'm not a teacher, and I know that Ms. Thibault could talk about this as well, but according to a recent study by the Canadian Association of Immersion Professionals, 50% of teachers who teach in French immersion programs are anglophones and 6% are allophones. That means that francophone teachers are not in the majority in French immersion schools.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Thank you.

[Nicole Thibault]

They went through the immersion program. They're proud of their French and, as teachers, they return to the French immersion program.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Thank you.

[Nicole Thibault]

In my opinion, it's often because they don't have the linguistic security to teach on the francophone side.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Thank you very much.

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

Mr. Chair, I'd like to make a correction. I called Mr. Dorion “Mr. Babin” when I was talking about money.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Thank you very much.

Let's try to keep to everyone's time so that everyone can ask even more questions. That's my goal. My role, which isn't always pleasant, is to be strict in this regard.

I'll now give the floor to Mr. Samson, from the Liberal Party, for six minutes.

[Darrell Samson, Liberal, Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses for being here today. Their presence enriches our work and will help us complete our report, which will be the first ever report on the education continuum. We were limited by certain interpretations of section 23 of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms.

My first questions will be for Ms. Thibault, whom I have known for a long time and with whom I worked closely, quite early in my career, when I worked in education and was responsible for basic programs and immersion programs.

There was no French-language school back in the day. So I did all my schooling in English.

My time is running out, and I know that my colleagues are going to try to steal a few seconds from me, so I'll move ahead quickly.

Ms. Thibault, how long have you been the executive director of this association?

[Nicole Thibault]

I've been the executive director of Canadian Parents for French for 10 years. I was also the executive director of the Canadian Association of Second Language Teachers for 10 years—

[Darrell Samson, Liberal, Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS]

I'm sorry to interrupt. I'm going to ask my questions fairly quickly, because I also want to address Mr. Dorion.

I must say that you've always supported education in French as a first language. I've always seen you as an ally, and I thank you and your association for that.

If I understood correctly, I think you said that 10,000 students were turned away by the Peel District School Board. So there's a gap. I imagine that the number of spaces in immersion classes is limited and that there's a waiting list. Is that correct?

[Nicole Thibault]

Yes, and you see it across the country. For example, there's a lot of immigration in Halifax, so two new schools will be opened.

Canadian Parents for French is advocating that these two schools offer an immersion program, but you'll understand that it's easier not to offer one—

[Darrell Samson, Liberal, Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS]

I'm sorry to interrupt you again, but my speaking time is limited, and I have two other questions for you.

First, there's a myth that I would like you to break. Some say that French immersion schools steal teachers from French school boards. What can you tell us about that?

Second, why did you choose to make a presentation here today?

I think these issues are important so that this committee can one day conduct a study on French immersion. Please try to answer in 30 seconds.

[Nicole Thibault]

French immersion programs are complementary. We're in the process of creating the allies of the francophonie. For us, the fact that you're conducting this study is extremely important. We have to understand this issue and then go further to see how bilingual members of the majority language group could support the country's francophonie.

It's not about competition. Teachers are trained in two different ways. In addition, the student audience is different. You really have to meet the admission criteria.

[Darrell Samson, Liberal, Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Dorion, I really liked your presentation. I understand how you feel. I also have mixed feelings, given that education in French as a first language was not available in my time.

I'll ask you a question that I'd like you to answer quickly.

What is the definition of an anglophone?

[Basile Dorion]

An anglophone is someone who lives more in English. By my definition, their name could be Marchand, Dorion or Lorrain, as well as Ferguson or Smith.

[Darrell Samson, Liberal, Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS]

Thank you, I don't want to—

[Basile Dorion]

Those are two completely different worlds.

[Darrell Samson, Liberal, Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS]

I'm asking you this question because it's very important. In my heart, bilingualism in this country has been challenged since Confederation. Francophones and Acadians did not have access to French-language schools. They've been assimilated. It was not their choice. They were assimilated because the system failed them.

Today, these people look me in the eye and tell me that their names are Landry, Marchand or Beaulieu and that they have lost their French. They ask me whether section 23 of the charter will be able to help them regain their language and culture.

I'm not sure it's a good idea to define these people as anglophones. For me, any assimilated Acadian is not an anglophone, but an assimilated Acadian. The blood that flows in their veins is Acadian blood. So my heart is big.

In Nova Scotia, despite all the efforts society has made for bilingualism since the 1969 legislation, 80% of students entering the francophone school system do not speak the language of the school, even though most of them are rights holders. These children do not speak French because they often come from mixed marriages.

It's not a matter of getting anglophones, but of providing an education and a culture again. There's a very fine line that needs to be worked on. In Nova Scotia, a superintendent of the francophone school board was quite innovative: He created an early learning system. At the age of four, children do their early education in a fun and games environment in French. This helps them learn the language before beginning their formal education in French.