Official Languages Committee on Nov. 26th, 2024

[Raymond Théberge]

It would be a win-win, yes.

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

Okay. Thank you, Commissioner.

Mr. Chair, I'm going to give the rest of my time to my colleague Ms. Gladu.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Ms. Gladu, you have the floor.

[Marilyn Gladu, Conservative, Sarnia—Lambton, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses for being here.

Mr. Théberge, you said that you had made recommendations to the government, but that no action had been taken. Can you send your list of recommendations to the clerk?

We're studying the continuum as well. We see that in day care there's a gap in providing francophone education. Also, in the primary system, we know that French immersion is doing fairly well in smaller communities, but we did hear that there's a big gap in the large cities.

Also, in the rural areas, there are just not enough minority rights schools, and I think you made that point. It gets worse as you go towards post-secondary.

What other gaps do you see, and what do you see as solutions for us to fix that?

[Raymond Théberge]

One of the gaps is the programming that's available at various points on the continuum.

I'll use Toronto as an example. After grade 8, 25% of the kids will change systems, because they know full well that in Toronto, if you want to access post-secondary, it's basically U of T or Toronto Metropolitan University, and now there's the Université de l'Ontario français.

They think in terms of “where can I go for post-secondary?” There are gaps there. In other words, there's not enough post-secondary programming. That is an issue in many of the provinces.

Also, when you go into rural areas, the choice of programs in secondary school is not what it is in some of the larger centres. There again, people will leave the system.

When you go right to the beginning of the system, in terms of child care, if there are not enough child care spaces for the minorities, the kids will go to anglophone day care, and often they don't end up going to the French school.

There are gaps everywhere in the system. Programming is a big one, because the more programs you have, the more students you have, but it becomes a vicious circle.

[Marilyn Gladu, Conservative, Sarnia—Lambton, ON]

In terms of section 23, it's not very clear there that it should include day care and it should include post-secondary. It's also not clear what is a sufficient number to justify it. Do you think it would be helpful to clarify something there, so that people couldn't neglect their responsibilities because it's vague?

[Raymond Théberge]

I think that on the jurisprudence around section 23, basically, you have to have a very liberal interpretation. People have been advocating for quite some time now, in terms of specifically post-secondary, that it should be covered by section 23. Now, in the last while, we talk more about early childhood. Ideally, section 23 would cover all the bases. It would cover the continuum.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Thank you, Ms. Gladu.

Mr. Samson, you have the floor for five minutes.

[Darrell Samson, Liberal, Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS]

Mr. Théberge, earlier I talked about the loss of status as a rights holder. I don't want that kind of loss to happen. I raised the issue to tell the minister that this kind of loss must not be allowed. If we lose three generations, the status of rights holders is indirectly lost. Regulations could be put in place to allow for an exception to stop the loss of rights holders. That would be something to think about, because, once again, our rights are violated when our students leave some schools in grades 7 or 8 because the services offered aren't up to snuff.

I have an important question for you about your report. You conclude by referring to the Statistics Canada survey, which talks about the number of students needed to justify offering services and compares the actual number to the potential number. Can you give us more details on the significance of those numbers? In your report, you seem very excited about the survey.

[Raymond Théberge]

I don't know if I'm excited about the Statistics Canada survey, but let's say that—

[Darrell Samson, Liberal, Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS]

I was talking about the results, not Statistics Canada.

[Raymond Théberge]

If we want to ensure that we can put in place the necessary infrastructure to meet the needs of the communities, then we need to know where the rights holders are. In my opinion, we also need to better understand the migration models of the communities, as well as their demographic evolution and ethnolinguistic profile. Communities are changing rapidly. I don't think the ones we knew as young people necessarily exist today. We have to be aware of this new reality and adapt to it.

Very often, when I was responsible for building schools, I was asked where the rights holders were. That was always the fundamental question. This post-censal survey gave us a lot of information on the communities, but also on where they are, how they are changing and how to better meet their needs going forward. That's what good data gives us.

[Darrell Samson, Liberal, Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS]

If rights holders and francophones don't have access to French-language education or services and there's no funding to offer them, aren't we assimilating them in Canada?

[Raymond Théberge]

We talk a lot about immigration when it comes to ensuring the vitality of communities, but we also have to stop assimilation, what we also call language transfers, among other things. However, the lack of access to education in the minority language will certainly contribute to assimilation.

[Darrell Samson, Liberal, Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS]

With regard to the expansion of section 23 of the charter, I find that the Supreme Court decision in the case involving the Northwest Territories gives some special ammunition to lawyers who will challenge such decisions in the future. I am referring to the weight given to the vitality of the community. What's your take on this?

[Raymond Théberge]

This decision shows that the community sees itself in a certain way. They see themselves as inclusive and as being in the best position to decide who should enrol in their schools. You know as well as I do that all school boards have their own policy on admission to minority schools.

[Darrell Samson, Liberal, Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS]

Thank you.

Since you are coming to the end of your mandate, I would like to ask you a question. If I gave you a magic wand and you could do one thing to advance the francophonie and French-language education in Canada, a key aspect of our society, what would you do?

[Raymond Théberge]

If I had a magic wand, I would broaden the scope of section 23 so that it applies to the entire education continuum.

[Darrell Samson, Liberal, Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS]

From cradle to grave.

[Raymond Théberge]

That's correct.

[Darrell Samson, Liberal, Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

We are surprised to see you stop 30 seconds before the end of your speaking time, Mr. Samson.

[Darrell Samson, Liberal, Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS]

I didn't realize I had 30 seconds left.

I would like to take this opportunity to thank the commissioner for his work, his dedication, his vision and the energy he has devoted to French-language education in Canada, not only in his role as Commissioner, but since his youth. He faced enormous challenges and was able not only to overcome those barriers, but also to influence the changes made to French-language education in Canada.

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Thank you, Mr. Samson, for your wise words.

Commissioner, this is probably your last visit to our committee. I won't repeat what Mr. Samson just said, but I would like to thank you on behalf of all committee members. You've made a good impression every time you've been here. You've got a fantastic team helping you, obviously.

On behalf of the entire Canadian francophonie and official language minorities, thank you for your dedication to these communities.

Mr. Godin, you have the floor.

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

Commissioner, I want to join Mr. Samson and Mr. Arseneault in sincerely thanking you for what you've done for the francophonie and official languages in Canada. On behalf of the Conservative Party, thank you.