Official Languages Committee on Nov. 26th, 2024

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

I call the meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 122 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Official Languages.

Before we begin, I'd like to invite everyone around the table to take a look at the little card in front of them, which provides instructions to help us avoid hearing accidents among our interpreters and technicians, because it's very important to look after their hearing health.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(3)(f) and the motion adopted by the committee on April 29, 2024, we will continue our study on the minority language education continuum.

I'd like to welcome the witnesses who are with us for the first hour of the meeting. They are regulars: Mr. Raymond Théberge, Commissioner of Official Languages, Mr. Patrick Wolfe, assistant commissioner, compliance and enforcement branch, and Mr. Pierre Leduc, assistant commissioner, strategic direction and external relations branch.

Welcome back to the committee, gentlemen. I see you have a team with you, so welcome to everyone.

Commissioner, as you know, I'm strict with regard to time, which allows the various political parties to ask many more questions. So you have a firm five minutes for your opening statement.

[Raymond Théberge, Commissioner of Official Languages, Office of the Commissioner of Official Languages]

Thank you.

Mr. Chair and honourable members of the committee, good morning.

Before I begin, I'd like to acknowledge that we are on land that is part of the traditional unceded territory of the Algonquin Anishinabe nation, an Ottawa Valley aboriginal people.

Since I took office in 2018, I've said repeatedly that education is a community's most powerful tool for ensuring the vitality of its language and culture. A strong education continuum is essential for official language minority communities, or OLMCs, in Canada.

Their vitality depends on the opportunity to learn the official language of the minority, from early childhood to adulthood. Minority learning institutions create spaces where speakers can thrive in the minority language, and immersion programs allow people to learn French while standardizing its use in a public place, which is to say, the classroom. Furthermore, I'd like to point out that on October 9, I published a report entitled, “A shared future: A closer look at our official language minority communities.” It highlights several challenges faced by OLMCs, including the learning continuum.

At the very root of the continuum challenge is the question of funding. Many learning sectors are suffering from a chronic lack of long-term funding, especially those that serve OLMCs. This situation makes it difficult to ensure the right to minority language education, which is protected by section 23 of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms. Furthermore, the post-secondary sector needs stable and sufficient government funding to ensure that it can function effectively and that the infrastructure is in place to meet the needs of OLMCs.

The “Action Plan for Official Languages 2023-2028” is an important means of providing core funding and project funding to these sectors. It should serve to better meet the needs identified by OLMC stakeholders. However, despite the action plan's increase in funding, I've noted that some of the recommendations I made in the last year of the previous action plan, 2018-2023, have not been implemented, including the recommendation to ensure rapid deployment of initiatives as soon as the next plan was launched.

In addition to stable funding, another way of ensuring a seamless continuum is greater co-operation between the Government of Canada and the provinces and territories. We need to continue to emphasize the importance of including language clauses in federal-provincial-territorial agreements—clauses that contain specific, transparent and accountability mechanisms that will produce tangible, measurable and lasting results. I also encourage the federal government to clarify how, through the regulations it is developing, it will honour its commitment under part VII of the Official Languages Act to ensure that “members of English and French [OLMCs have opportunities] to pursue quality learning in their own language throughout their lives”.

In my opinion, educational experiences should be equivalent across the country, both in the linguistic majority's schools and those of the linguistic minority. This includes recognition of the linguistic minority's right to manage their schools. I insist that governments recognize this need.

For a variety of reasons, we find that children stop studying in the minority language at various stages of the continuum. It would be important to better identify the timing and causes of this enrolment loss, using evidence-based data. That data would allow governments and stakeholders to target their recruitment and retention efforts more effectively.

This past September, I attended the CARE conference in Montreal, and one of its goals is to strengthen the vital link between the education committee and the English-speaking communities. I encourage the latter to continue their efforts to engage with the provincial government and advocate for their rights. English-speaking communities in Quebec are committed to protecting and promoting the French language. In fact, the public French immersion programs they've established have consistently proven their worth in advancing the equality of both of Canada's official languages. This is reflected in the high rate of bilingualism among English-speaking Quebeckers.

In closing, I hope that these elements will help you reflect on the learning continuum, which is crucial to the vitality of official language minority communities.

I will be pleased to answer your questions in the language of your choice.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Thank you, Commissioner.

The first round of questions and answers will be six minutes per party. We will begin with the first chair of the Standing Committee on Official Languages.

Mr. Godin, you have the floor for six minutes.

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

Mr. Chair, I'm the first vice-chair of the committee, but I thank you nonetheless; it may be premonitory.

Mr. Théberge, Mr. Wolfe and Mr. Leduc, thank you for being here. We are always pleased to welcome you to the Standing Committee on Official Languages.

Commissioner, in your October 2024 report, you state that “[t]he 2021 Census provided much-needed evidence on rights holders”. A few lines later, things get worse. You encourage “Statistics Canada to continue to expand its analyses in this area … The modernized Act commits the government to restoring the demographic weight of the Francophone minority through immigration, but the government must also ensure that new generations are not lost to assimilation through majority language schools.” You conclude by saying that you are “pleased that the modernization of the Act includes the federal government's commitment to periodically estimate the number of children of rights holders.”

You know that I fought the battle between “counting” and “estimating.” My question is simple. How can we be happy with a simple estimate in the next census, instead of an enumeration?

[Raymond Théberge]

If we could count all the individuals, that would probably be ideal, in my opinion. Having an estimate still allows us to better know where the rights holders are located, which is extremely important. Over the past 20 or 30 years, there have been migrations across Canada. There are places where there were no francophones 20 years ago, but where they can be found today. It's therefore extremely important to give access to schools where rights holders are. The lack of access to those schools leads to assimilation, because there's a break in the continuum. Young people leave schools at some point during their apprenticeship.

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

Thank you. I understand what you're saying, but you're praising the battle that was waged by the committee with respect to enumeration in the 2021 census, while being satisfied that the government is on the right track. I think that could have been reinforced.

You talked about accessibility to schools. In your experience, if a French-language school is built in an official language minority community, what is the impact on the community?

[Raymond Théberge]

First, the school will fill up.

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

Are you sure?

[Raymond Théberge]

Yes. It's to the point where you almost immediately start building portable classrooms, because there already isn't enough room in the school. If a community welcomes a francophone school for the first time, it becomes a gathering place. We're talking about the community side of these schools. The school becomes a space where community members can interact, socialize and participate in activities in their mother tongue. Schools are at the heart of communities. For over 50 years, we've been working to create these schools in the communities. They become a focal point for the community.

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

Once again, there isn't a lack of clientele, but a lack of infrastructure. We need to speed up the process in order to save French in official language minority communities outside Quebec.

[Raymond Théberge]

Absolutely. There's a shortage of schools and facilities in every province. If we don't have enough high schools, young people will opt for an institution closer to them. We need only look at what's happening in British Columbia, for example, where the Supreme Court has rendered a decision. There's a crying need for new schools. I'd say that's the case in almost every province.

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

In the same report, you mention your intervention in the Commission scolaire francophone des Territoires du Nord-Ouest v. Northwest Territories (Education, Culture and Employment). You say that in its decision, “the Supreme Court set aside ministerial decisions refusing to admit children of non-rights-holder parents to French-language schools in the Northwest Territories. According to the Supreme Court, the Minister of Education, Culture and Employment should have considered the values of section 23 of the Charter in exercising her discretion.”

What are the positive and negative consequences of that decision?

[Raymond Théberge]

The positive consequences include increasing school enrolment, which makes it possible to provide more services.

In one of the areas where contact between the two communities is quite intense—such as Yellowknife, which isn't a huge community—we see that this leads to positive interactions among young people from both communities. This has a positive impact on learning French. So French is more present.

Of course, the danger is the effect of English on young people. In a minority language environment, it's always important to devote as much time as possible to the minority language in the classroom.

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

Would you say that other levels of government don't show the same willingness to give greater prominence to the second official language in official language minority communities?

[Raymond Théberge]

It may not be a priority for some governments. In the past, we very often had to go before the courts to move the education file forward, particularly to ask for the building of schools, among other things.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Thank you, Commissioner.

Mr. Joël Lightbound, you have the floor for six minutes.

[Joël Lightbound, Liberal, Louis-Hébert, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Commissioner, thank you for being here with your team. I'll continue along the same lines as my colleague Joël Godin.

You talked about the lack of physical and human infrastructure. We know that there's also a shortage of francophone teachers and early childhood educators in places where French is the minority language. You've travelled across the country and have been studying this issue for at least seven years now, if not longer, given your previous background.

In what part of Canada is the continuum of minority-language education being successfully pursued? Can you think of an example of a province where there is local involvement and where children start their education in French at an early age and continue it in that language, an example that could serve as a model to be replicated elsewhere in the country?

[Raymond Théberge]

I think we have to be careful when we talk about a better model, because our communities are so different from each other.

For example, in New Brunswick, about one third of the population is francophone and Acadian. So there is a critical mass, not only in elementary and secondary schools, but, of course, at the Université de Moncton. So that allows for a continuum in education. However, there are still some early childhood challenges.

As for Ontario, it managed to expand its 12 school boards thanks to the language planning policy it adopted several years ago. There are many lessons to be learned from that province in terms of language adjustments at the elementary and secondary levels. It's often more difficult at the post-secondary level, where a certain critical mass is often required. Too few programs will be offered if there aren't enough students. We then get into a vicious circle.

Personally, I think it's important that the education continuum be adapted to each province's situation. In Manitoba, francophones represent 2% of the population. Clearly, the situation is different. However, the Division scolaire franco-manitobaine does excellent work in elementary and secondary schools.

The education continuum in Quebec's English-speaking community seems to have some barriers, but there is a network of primary and secondary schools and, of course, universities and CEGEPs. These include Concordia University, McGill University and Dawson College.

I think we have to develop a model that applies to each community. Things are different in New Brunswick than they are in British Columbia or Alberta. The ideal model would be one where, as soon as a French-speaking baby from Quebec leaves the hospital, he'd have a place in a French-language day care and then be able to continue his studies in French in the education system. It would be the same thing for an anglophone baby in Quebec. However, the reality is that there are gaps throughout the education continuum, whether it be at the early childhood, primary or secondary levels. Even where there are universities, they don't offer a full range of programs.

In Ontario, there's a lot of talk about universities being mainly bilingual. But we have the Université de Hearst and the Université de l'Ontario français. However, the idea of by and for francophones often comes up.

The issue of the education continuum is extremely complex. We could put it on paper, but I don't think there's a province or territory that meets all the criteria.

[Joël Lightbound, Liberal, Louis-Hébert, QC]

I understand. Also, everything is so connected. You say that we don't have the critical mass for post-secondary education, but that also comes from early childhood. In order to have that mass, access must be available so that we don't lose those francophones.

We heard from Professor Pierre Foucher, who spoke to us about section 23 of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms. In a way, that section gives us a basis for examining the continuum in education, but it doesn't apply to early childhood or post-secondary education. Professor Foucher told us that there was the expansion provided by the decision on the Northwest Territories, which Joël Godin referred to, but he saw a possibility of broadening the interpretation of this clause to include early childhood and post-secondary education.

Is that something you see or would like to see? Do you have any comments?

[Raymond Théberge]

I would obviously like section 23 to apply to post-secondary education and early childhood. I think this issue will eventually end up before the courts. In Alberta, right now, in the case of the Faculté Saint-Jean, the community is going to court, but can't argue that section 23 applies to post-secondary education. I'm not a constitutional expert, so I'm not really in a position to comment on that, but I know that it would be quite a victory for communities to have another part of the continuum now covered by section 23. I think that historically, we have focused a lot on primary and secondary education. I'm of the same generation as Mr. Samson, where the—

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

You are younger than Mr. Samson.

[Voices]

Oh, oh!

[Raymond Théberge]

I don't know. Let's say that those were the days when French-language schools didn't even exist. So, at first, we focused on elementary and secondary schools. Now, we see that this isn't enough, because if facilities are not available at each stage of the continuum, young people decide to go elsewhere.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Thank you very much, Commissioner.

Thank you, Mr. Lightbound.

I now yield the floor to the second vice-chair of this committee, Mr. Beaulieu, for six minutes.

[Mario Beaulieu, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Welcome to the people from the Office of the Commissioner of Official Languages.

Commissioner, in your last report, “A shared future: A closer look at our official language minority communities,” you completely ignored the asymmetrical approach in the new Official Languages Act, which states francophones are a minority across Canada and that French is threatened in Quebec, not English. For example, you say that you support the English-speaking community with respect to new laws designed to somewhat limit funding for English-speaking institutions, in order to achieve equitable funding between French and English-speaking institutions in Quebec.

How do you take this new approach into account?