Official Languages Committee on Nov. 26th, 2024

[Raymond Théberge]

Clearly, when we talk about asymmetry, that applies in large part in the context of part VII of the Official Languages Act, for which we don't yet have the necessary implementing regulations. I think, however, that part VII also states that we recognize that there are two official language communities in Canada. It makes that clear, and it's clearly stated in other parts of the act as well. It also recognizes this asymmetry. You're absolutely right.

[Mario Beaulieu, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

Part VII also states that there must be measures to support French in Quebec.

[Raymond Théberge]

Yes, I completely agree, but that doesn't mean that we cannot have measures to support the other community. One doesn't preclude the other.

[Mario Beaulieu, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

I'll just give you an example. Currently, in the funding provided by the Government of Quebec to CEGEPs, the percentage paid to anglophone institutions is twice as high as the proportion of anglophones in the population. You fully agree with that and you are opposed to the Government of Quebec correcting this situation.

[Raymond Théberge]

What I perhaps oppose is a lack of consultation with the community and the way it was imposed. I was reading the report by Mr. Dubreuil, Quebec's French language commissioner, who talks about increasing the percentage of French-language education at the post-secondary level. However, he recommends that this be done gradually, in consultation and in partnership with post-secondary institutions. I think there should be—

[Mario Beaulieu, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

However, he also proposes to further cap the number of spaces in anglophone CEGEPs.

Ultimately, I think you're going back to myths that are propagated by certain anglophone lobby groups. In particular, you say that one of the main challenges facing the anglophone minority in Quebec is the perception that it does not subscribe to the value of the French language as a common language. However, you recognize the Quebec Community Groups Network, or QCGN, somewhat as the flagship, the representative of the anglophone community in Quebec.

In committee, during the clause-by-clause study of the new Official Languages Act, the QCGN was pleased that a Bloc Québécois proposal to include the concept of French as a common language in the new act was defeated. Furthermore, it states in one of its blog posts that, “the QCGN has never endorsed the idea of a common language. In fact, we have been very circumspect about the idea and its link to ethno-linguistic nationalism.” Then it goes on with mudslinging. Do you agree with that?

[Raymond Théberge]

I'm not talking about the QCGN. We conducted a study with the Quebec public on the perception of the two communities, and it is clear that what people think is not necessarily expressed by certain representatives. It's important to remember that anglophones in Quebec want to be part of Quebec society and contribute to it. Our study showed very clearly that there are sometimes areas of agreement—

[Mario Beaulieu, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

That's easy to say, as the federal government, under part VII of the Official Languages Act, supports the QCGN and probably recognizes it as the representative of Quebec anglophones. However, that organization opposes the notion of French as a common language and has spread a lot of misinformation, which you are repeating, particularly about access to health care. However, Bill 96 does not affect access to health care. In Montreal, francophones have trouble getting health care in French. So I think there's a real bias.

You also repeated the cliché that anglophones are poorer than francophones, and that's a massive generalization. You've already made that statement here, and I asked you to send me the data. The data indicated that the incomes of the two groups were more or less equal, but you based your statement on the first official language spoken and the median. However, when we take language of work into account, we see that people who work in English in Quebec earn about $15,000 more. The indicators that define the historical anglophone community the most show that it is still very high up in the ranks.

In doing so, why do you think you're improving the situation of French in Quebec?

[Raymond Théberge]

As Commissioner of Official Languages, I am here to defend both official language minority communities. Of course, the situation of francophones outside Quebec is different from that of the anglophone community in Quebec. The differences are significant. Those communities are not the same. The francophone community is scattered across the nine provinces—

[Mario Beaulieu, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

Do you not take into account the fact that French is threatened in Quebec?

[Raymond Théberge]

Yes, absolutely, we take it into account, but it's not by taking away someone else's rights that we're going to advance someone else's rights.

[Mario Beaulieu, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

Do you think it's a right to anglicize newcomers?

[Raymond Théberge]

It's not a right—

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Thank you, Mr. Beaulieu. Your time is up.

Thank you, Commissioner.

Mr. Cannings, the floor is yours for six minutes.

[Richard Cannings, NDP, South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC]

Thank you very much.

To the witnesses, thank you for being here today.

We're talking about the continuum of minority language education services. I think Mr. Lightbound spoke to this. I'd like to continue that about the earliest part of that education in child care situations—preschool, if you will

I know that my colleague Leah Gazan, the MP for Winnipeg Centre, introduced an amendment to Bill C-35 that supported the availability of minority language child care across Canada. If you're a francophone family in Manitoba or British Columbia, it would be good to have child care available in French, for instance.

I'm just wondering if you could further comment on that and what that provision in Bill C-35 might mean to that situation.

[Raymond Théberge]

It means a lot in the sense in that, the earlier one starts learning in his or her first language, the greater the chance of their continuing their education in that language.

The issue we have when it comes to early learning is, one, a lack of spaces, and, two, a lack of staff to be able to provide the services.

It is key. In many provinces, we have what we call l'exogamie. I don't know how you say it in English—exogamy. We have numerous couples who are linguistically mixed. The children need access to these supports early on.

I think what's being put forward is crucial to the linguistic vitality of these communities. We have to find ways to staff them. We need more spaces. We just don't have enough spaces.

In 2026, I think we will be renewing it—not the action plan but the program. I think we have to dramatically increase the number of spaces available. Without them, we will lose a significant number of potential students entering our schools.

[Richard Cannings, NDP, South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC]

Education, as we all know, is a provincial matter. I'm not a regular member of this committee, so I may not know the intricacies of how the federal mandate impinges on that.

How can the federal government make sure we have enough teachers and staff for these positions within schools?

In British Columbia, my kids went through French immersion. However, it was late immersion, because we don't have the staff or facilities to do full immersion if you're not a francophone family in British Columbia.

How can we make sure we have those positions available for francophones across Canada, and for anglophones in Quebec?

[Raymond Théberge]

There are a number of initiatives that have been launched to try to increase the number of French-language teachers across the country. There's been funding sent directly to post-secondary institutions—faculties of education. There's also a program where we established what we call an “immigration corridor” for teaching professionals. We ensure they have certain qualifications and can quickly become part of the system. There are issues around that.

I also think we have to be mindful that teaching, as a profession, is not what it used to be. It's not as valued as it used to be. We can't recruit teachers in majority-language schools, let alone minority-language schools. There seems to be an issue. As a former dean of education, I know we used to have no problem filling our classrooms. There is something out there happening in the schools. People are saying, “This no longer interests me as a career.”

We did a study in 2019, dealing only with FSL teachers and the lack of them. It was blatant. We had people in classrooms who were not qualified. In many provinces today, in majority-language schools, we have teachers who are not qualified. We have to find better pathways. In the 1960s, we had a program whereby.... I went to school in the sixties, so we're the boomers.

[Richard Cannings, NDP, South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC]

I am, too.

[Raymond Théberge]

We had to find many teachers, so we accelerated training programs. We were innovative. I don't think you're going to meet the needs of classrooms with five- or six-year teacher training programs. We have to be more innovative. We have to access other ways of doing it. We have to speed up training and those kinds of things.

It's a very complex issue, because it's not only schools. It's also early learning. In rural areas, it's even more difficult. The federal government, when it comes to minority-language education writ large, has programs in place to try to support this, but we have to find the candidates. We have to find people to be part of those programs.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Thanks, Mr. Cannings.

Thanks, Mr. Théberge.

We are starting a new round of questions.

Mr. Dalton, you have the floor for five minutes.

[Marc Dalton, Conservative, Pitt Meadows—Maple Ridge, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Théberge, thank you for your vigilance when it comes to official languages.

Earlier, Mr. Cannings talked a bit about the teacher shortage. You talked about immigrant certification. It is very difficult for immigrants to enter health care professions, in particular. You said there were problems in that regard.

Can you tell us more about the problem related to qualifications for becoming a teacher? Are the eligibility criteria too stringent or not stringent enough? What is the problem?

[Raymond Théberge]

When I was at the Council of Ministers of Education, Canada, there was a lot of talk about the recognition of prior learning and qualifications. They even said they were going to make sure that any qualified person would be able to get into a classroom. On the one hand, there is often opposition from professional bodies as to who should be admitted to the profession. On the other hand, there are people who come from abroad to teach.

However, it would be important for these people to receive training on the context in which they are going to find themselves and work. For example, if you come from France and settle in Ponteix, Saskatchewan, the environment is not the same; the context is different. It's also important to understand that the pedagogical approaches used in Canada are not necessarily the same everywhere. It's a matter of adaptation. So we have to give those people the tools to succeed. Without the proper tools, they won't succeed in the classroom.

Just because you're a teacher in one country doesn't mean you can automatically transfer your knowledge to another. The teacher always needs to understand the cultural aspect of their classroom. You know as well as I do that, in today's classrooms, there are a lot of different needs, not to mention neurodiversity. We have to be aware of all that, which requires some training. The community that welcomes teachers from immigrant backgrounds must be made aware of this.

[Marc Dalton, Conservative, Pitt Meadows—Maple Ridge, BC]

We are actually seeing a major change in the Canadian population, which is becoming increasingly multicultural, and that is a positive change.

Millions of immigrants arrive in Canada, many of whom already speak French. Studies have been done on the decline of French in Canada. Could you talk about immigration and the demographic shift that's happening in Canada? Of course, we welcome immigrants from countries where French is spoken, but the proportion of those types of immigrants is not what it used to be. Can you talk about the vitality of French outside Quebec, in particular? You can also talk about French in Quebec if you want to.

[Raymond Théberge]

I can refer to part VII of the Official Languages Act, which talks about the desire to restore the proportion of francophones outside Quebec to 6.1%, which is what it used to be. To do that, the preferred tool is immigration. However, from 2003-04 to about 2022-23, the government met its target only once, in the last year of the program.

It's all well and good to set a target of 7%, 8%, 9% or 10% of francophones outside Quebec, or even more, but for that to happen, all the necessary elements and structures must really be in place to support those people.

When you're an immigrant, your situation is very complex. You leave one country and arrive in another country with a host society. Programs must be put in place to ensure that those people have a job, housing and access to education. It's not enough to recruit x number of people who speak French or English. All the necessary support has to be put in place for those people.

In francophone minority communities, it is even more important to ensure employability, housing, access to education and so on for those people, as otherwise they will leave for the larger centres. So that is extremely important.