Official Languages Committee on Nov. 26th, 2024

[Raymond Théberge]

This has already been challenged in the courts on a number of occasions. In fact, many of the advances that have been made in recent decades have been as a result of court decisions that have strengthened rights to education. Before the Mahé decision in 1990, nothing was happening. Today, we have a system in place. I remember when there were no francophone students in the francophone schools, because the francophone schools did not exist. There are now 150,000 students in francophone schools outside Quebec. So there is growth.

However, we can never be satisfied with the status quo in terms of linguistic minority rights, because sticking to the status quo would lead to a setback. Part VII of the Official Languages Act talks about vitality, not just keeping a certain status quo. We want communities to flourish, to be stronger, healthier and more dynamic. That will always require investment, because the context in which we live is constantly changing.

[Darrell Samson, Liberal, Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS]

I will conclude by saying that the right of communities to manage their educational institutions and their right to funding are, in my opinion, at issue. So our rights are still being violated today.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Thank you, Mr. Samson.

Mr. Beaulieu, you have the floor for two and a half minutes.

[Mario Beaulieu, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

In Quebec, the number of seats in anglophone CEGEPs and anglophone universities exceeds the proportion of anglophones in the population. We can always accept that anglophones have the right to access anglophone institutions. However, is it a right that there are spaces in those institutions for allophones and francophones?

[Raymond Théberge]

I think the question of who has access to CEGEPs in Quebec is beyond my remit.

[Mario Beaulieu, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

In that case, you should not have waded in on the issue. I think that, by intervening the way you did, you interfered in an area that falls under Quebec's jurisdiction. Don't you agree?

[Raymond Théberge]

No.

[Mario Beaulieu, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

So, in your opinion, you have the right to interfere. You have the right to take a stand, not for the rights of anglophones, but to maintain their ability to anglicize francophones and allophones.

[Raymond Théberge]

I think that the rights related to the education continuum apply to both official language minority communities.

[Mario Beaulieu, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

Absolutely, but those rights are already upheld in Quebec. Quebec is the only province where the official language minority community has enough spaces. That's the case in every region of Quebec. However, my question is the following: Should there be so many spaces that, in the end, francophones and allophones are anglicized?

A Statistics Canada study has shown that when you attend a CEGEP or university offering courses in one language, the higher the chances that you will work in that same language. Do you think that's true? Are those results valid?

[Raymond Théberge]

That's certainly a possibility.

[Mario Beaulieu, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

That's right.

However, if it is valid, and if we continue to ensure that there are twice as many spaces at anglophone CEGEPs and three times as many spaces at anglophone universities, we are contributing to the anglicization of Quebec.

[Raymond Théberge]

Spaces have been capped.

[Mario Beaulieu, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

Yes, but it was that cap that you were critical of. You said that you shared the concerns of the anglophone community about this cap and the increase in tuition fees.

[Raymond Théberge]

Very often, we don't know what the consequences of this kind of measure will be. The community has a right to be concerned.

[Mario Beaulieu, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

However, I think that, by interfering in this matter and saying that you shared the community's concerns and that you were defending its rights, you did not help to solve the problem. Instead, you made the problem bigger.

[Raymond Théberge]

We certainly don't have the same definition of the word “interference”.

[Mario Beaulieu, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

Quite.

For example—

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Thank you, Mr. Beaulieu. Two and a half minutes go by quickly.

Mr. Cannings, the floor is yours for two and a half minutes.

[Richard Cannings, NDP, South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC]

Thank you.

I'd like to switch from one end of the continuum to the other, going from early child care situations to postgraduate work in universities and colleges. We've done a study in the science and research committee on how difficult it is for francophone researchers to publish in French, and that is because of things outside the control of this or any government, because English has become the lingua franca, to use that term, of world science and research.

I'm just wondering if your office has been doing anything to work on that issue. How can we still encourage francophone graduate students in their studies and in their research when so much of what is published almost has to be in English to have some effect? Can you comment on that?

[Raymond Théberge]

First, I think we have to be mindful of the research ecosystem, where, basically, the number of publications is controlled by a very few publishing houses. If you want to be an associate professor, an assistant professor and then a full professor, you have to publish. Very often, those journals are in English.

We have received, in the past, some complaints dealing with funding of research proposals, particularly in French. In the past, the funding councils had specific programs for francophone communities. They no longer exist, as far as I know, and Canadian Heritage has put in place an expert panel to look at how we could encourage more research in French, more publications in French. It's quite a challenge, given the ecosystem where, basically, it doesn't matter what your first language is, because you will publish in that second language.

I do think that we could, for example, tie publications that are funded by Canadian funding agencies to having to produce your text in both official languages. That would be a start. I don't know if it's possible, but....

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Time is very short. I'm giving plus or minus 10 seconds to everyone.

We have time for a quick, let's say, two minutes for the Conservatives.

Mr. Godin, over to you.

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

I'll be sharing my time, Mr. Chair.

Commissioner, you determined that there was a shortage of francophone teachers, which is a problem. Would one of the keys to the solution be bringing in foreign francophone teachers? That way, we could kill two birds with one stone: We would increase francophone immigration and we could offer French-language education.

[Raymond Théberge]

A pathway has been set up for teachers. That said, as I told Mr. Dalton, it's not just a matter of recruiting teachers from another country and assigning them a class here. There has to be a transition period and support, among other things.

I think it's important to remember that this is certainly part of the solution. However, we have to provide these people with supports, because—

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

If I may interrupt you, with all due respect, Commissioner, if it's done properly, it may be a short-term solution, but it would solve two problems for the Canadian francophonie: the teacher shortage and immigration.