Official Languages Committee on Dec. 5th, 2024

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

I call the meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 124 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Official Languages.

Once again, I am going to abbreviate the instructions, but for those who are in the room, I would remind you that there are little cards with explanations concerning feedback incidents and how to avoid them. I ask that only one microphone be on at a time, so please do not turn your mic on until I give you the floor.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(3)(f) and the motion adopted by the committee on April 29, 2024, we are continuing our study on the minority language education continuum.

I'd like to welcome the witnesses who are with us by videoconference for the first hour of the meeting.

First, we have Paul E. Henry, major (retired) and director of education and secretary-treasurer of the Conseil scolaire catholique du Nouvel‑Ontario.

Next, from the Commission scolaire francophone du Yukon, we have Jean-Sébastien Blais, president, and his associate, Marc Champagne, executive director.

Each witness will have five minutes to make their presentation, after which there will be a period for questions from each party. I am strict about time, because that allows all parties to ask questions.

Mr. Henry, from the Conseil scolaire catholique du Nouvel‑Ontario, the floor is yours for five minutes.

[Paul E. Henry, Retired Major, Director of Education and Secretary-Treasurer, Conseil scolaire catholique du Nouvel-Ontario]

Hello, aanii, Mr. Chair and members of the Standing Committee on Official Languages.

My name is Paul Henry, major (retired) and director of education and secretary-treasurer of the Conseil scolaire catholique du Nouvel‑Ontario, also known as the CSC Nouvelon, which is located on the traditional territory of the Atikameksheng Anishnawbek and Wahnapitae nations, which is designated in the Robinson-Huron Treaty of 1850. More specifically, it lies in the corridor that is the route of Highway 17, the Trans-Canada, which goes through Sudbury East, Greater Sudbury, Algoma, Michipicoten, Wawa and Chapleau. It is a French Catholic school district extending from Markstay-Warren to Hornepayne and consisting of over 20,000 square kilometres,

This is my 33rd year in Franco-Ontarian education, in the course of which I have spent the last five years at the helm of the CSC Nouvelon, and I will be bowing out in spring 2025. I want to offer my very sincere thanks for this invitation and this important and unique opportunity to present my perspective as an experienced educator and administrator in the field of the official languages of Canada. My brief presentation will touch on various issues that I consider to be crucial in order to secure and intensify the “by and for” approach for francophones in minority communities, while respecting our linguistic duality under section 23 of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms, 1982. At bottom, governance of my Catholic school board, whose first language is French, is the determining factor and must be intensified.

Moving on, I will now present several crucial concerns in the form of pillars, to lay the groundwork for the discussion that will follow.

I will start with funding for French first language education. The funding allocated by the federal government to the provinces, and in particular to Ontario, is not always divided equitably among the 12 French-language school boards and the Consortium Centre Jules‑Léger. Increasingly, we feel that the idea of uniform solutions is being applied in Ontario without our knowledge. This kind of approach is discriminatory, inequitable and unfair to us as compared to the approach adopted for our anglophone counterparts. It seems that we are always having to demand our rights and the gains we have made. Otherwise, it is our students, our learners, our parents and guardians, our elected representatives, and our staff members who end up the losers—

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Wait just a minute, Mr. Henry. I have stopped the clock because there is a technical problem with the interpretation. I think your mic is too close to your mouth and because you are speaking forcefully, it is causing the sound to be distorted, so I would ask that you move back a bit.

Thank you. You may continue.

[Paul E. Henry]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

The second point relates to early childhood education, the goal of which is to provide a K‑12 continuum of learning, from kindergarten to grade 12.

The federal government, represented by the Department of Canadian Heritage, in collaboration with the Ontario Ministry of Education, recently granted increased funding in the amount of $4.2 million to the Conseil scolaire catholique du Nouvel‑Ontario. That money will support the completion of a major expansion: a new child care centre in our new school being built in the Val Thérèse, Hanmer, and Capreol districts. We want to thank the federal government again for this considerable financial support. There will be 88 new places in this modern child care centre, which will accommodate infants, toddlers and preschool aged children, who will thus be able to embark on their learning path in a French first language Catholic school environment.

This important, decisive and extraordinary funding will enable us to respond to a glaring need for much desired places in schools and support our future parents and future students, since the waiting lists are enormous at present. Obviously, the federal government, in collaboration with the provinces, is strongly encouraged to continue offering essential financial support through its action plan for official languages. The experts confirm that exposing our future students earlier to French as a first language is a determining factor in their later success in the K‑12 learning continuum.

The third concern is the violation of section 23 and failure to respect our governance in French as a first language. The 1990 Mahe decision gave francophones the right to manage their schools. This essential right was entrenched in the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms, 1982, by the Supreme Court of Canada, applying section 23, specifically. It is still a leading legal tool for guaranteeing our governance in our French first language school boards.

We have actually seen for some time that successive Ontario governments do not seem open to recognizing and respecting this fact. Recently, we have seen various sworn statements made in cases heard by the Ontario Court of Justice that make it plain what risk that francophone school boards are at, because of the underfunding of transportation and allocation of new capital projects, among other things. It is important to note that several of the boards are currently in a deficit situation because of this underfunding. I want to reiterate the importance for us all of having our fair share of the market and being properly funded, for the future of our students and the survival of our French first language schools.

My fourth point is the conceptual framework for developing educational leadership. For several years, the Conseil ontarien des directions de l'éducation de langue française has been calling on the Ontario government to allocate funds to the school boards so they can set up leadership and mentoring programs to support senior managers and managers in the schools and in the councils' own services. It would be good if the government prioritized ad hoc funding precisely to ensure that there is an adequate pool of people with preparation in leadership to fill these positions in the years to come.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Thank you, Mr. Henry. You may have an opportunity to make the other points in your presentation during the question and answer period. For the moment, however, I have to give the floor to the other organization, the Commission scolaire francophone du Yukon.

Mr. Blais, the floor is yours for five minutes.

[Jean-Sébastien Blais, President, Commission scolaire francophone du Yukon]

Good afternoon to all of the committee.

I am very pleased to be with you today to talk about the Yukon perspective on the underfunding of French education. With me is Marc Champagne, our executive director.

I come from a school board whose activities and facilities are located on the territories of three Indigenous nations: the Tr'ondëk Hwëch'in nation, in Dawson, and the Ta'an Kwäch'än council and Kwanlin nation, in Whitehorse. I want to recognize them and congratulate them on their contribution to the education of their students.

My presentation will cover three topics: kindergarten to grade 12, early childhood education, and post‑secondary education.

I want to point out that Yukon is the only place in Canada where the demographic weight of the francophone population has not declined in the last 50 years; the opposite is true: it has grown by 87% since 1971. With this constant growth in the French-speaking population of Yukon comes an increase in needs in both urban and rural areas. If we want to maintain that growth, we must have the resources to support education in French, from early childhood to the post‑secondary level.

First, education from kindergarten to grade 12. As you know, the francophone community has schools in Yukon. Those schools are how we are able to access our language and our culture. Whitehorse has two francophone schools: Émilie‑Tremblay School and Paul-Émile-Mercier Secondary School Community Centre. Dawson has the Confluence program, which offers an education from four-year-old kindergarten up to grade 5. There is also Nomad School, a virtual school that offers services to families who homeschool and do not have access to a francophone school. In total, we have 403 students in our educational institutions. We have seen growth of over 75% over the last ten years.

You are aware, of course, that funding, which comes from the official languages in education program, continues to pose serious problems. While the last action plan for official languages announced an increase in that funding, we have seen a decline in the per-student allocation. This situation is a matter of concern at a time when the needs of francophone schools like ours are continuing to grow. To meet these challenges, we believe it is essential that adequate funding, on the order of 67¢ per student rather than the 56¢ per student we currently get, be restored.

As well, in order for Canadian Heritage to be more aware of our needs and better able to fund us through the official languages in education program, we believe it should adopt a practice of systematic consultation. Consultation could take place once or twice a year. We could have a meeting with representatives of the department about the use of federal funds. This would be a way for Canadian Heritage to get information from both the territories and the provinces, but also, at the same time, from the users of official languages in education program money: the school boards. At present, there is little indication to suggest that Canadian Heritage is concerned about systematically consulting with the school boards, and this means that the territories and provinces are the only ones providing information about education to Canadian Heritage. We believe that the sources of information supplied to Canadian Heritage should be expanded.

We would like to draw your attention to another point: the lack of equity in the funding given to the territories and provinces. The cost of living in Yukon is high. Every dollar invested by Canadian Heritage in Toronto buys more goods than a dollar invested in Whitehorse. For example, in August 2024, the cost of living was 23% higher in Whitehorse than in a province like Alberta. For food, there was also a 23% difference between Whitehorse prices and prices in rural areas of Yukon. Equity therefore calls for a funding formula that takes the northern factor and the rural factor into account.

We would also point out that for remote and rural regions like Yukon, it is important that the census continue to enumerate rights holders rather than simply estimate the number. This process enables us to monitor demographic trends properly and adapt our services to the evolving needs of francophone minority communities. We want to note that evidence such as is provided by the 2021 Census enabled us to hold an effective discussion with the Yukon government, which made it possible to set up the Confluence program in Dawson.

I would also like to say, regarding postsecondary education, that it is also important that Canadian Heritage invest so that our secondary school graduates will pursue their education in French in postsecondary educational institutions. In Yukon at present there are no postsecondary educational institutions able to serve these students in French.

I see that my five minutes are coming to an end, and I thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Your time was not coming to an end, you had gone beyond it, but that's okay.

For the benefit of people who are not used to attending our meetings, there will now be a question period during which each party will have six minutes. We always start with the official opposition, the Conservatives.

I invite the first vice-chair of our committee, Mr. Godin, to take the floor for six minutes.

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you for being with us, Mr. Henry and Mr. Blais.

I don't know what is happening in Yukon or what your recipe is, but you are getting good results. Can you tell us, briefly, how you manage to achieve such positive progress for francophones?

[Jean-Sébastien Blais]

Two things come to mind. The first is to have high quality educational programs that make students want to attend school in French. I am thinking about the quality of the teaching and of the pedagogical tools and teacher training, and the fact that these are qualified teachers who are there for the students. The second thing is the quality of the infrastructure. When you come to our schools, you can expect to see high quality infrastructure, and this gives parents confidence that the educational experience will benefit their children. In my opinion, these two things persuade the community to come to our schools.

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the territorial government is willing to collaborate and the francophone community in Yukon is important to it.

[Jean-Sébastien Blais]

We have a good relationship with the Yukon government, and that is a good thing. However, it is not codified. If there were a change of leadership in the territorial government team, who knows whether the culture of collaboration would survive.

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

So there is some fragility.

[Jean-Sébastien Blais]

That's right.

I would like to ask Mr. Champagne, who deals with the senior officials in the Yukon government, to say a few words on this subject.

[Marc Champagne, Executive Director, Commission scolaire francophone du Yukon]

As I mentioned, our relationship often depends on people's goodwill; so it is not necessarily codified. Among other things, we are talking about the memorandum of understanding with Heritage Canada, which deals with funding. We would like the manner of proceeding, collaborating and consulting the school board here in Yukon, along with the other education stakeholders, to be codified. As you said, there is a degree of fragility when it comes to relationships.

However, we have made a lot of gains in Yukon thanks to the support of the federal government. We recently opened a secondary school community centre—

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

Unfortunately, Mr. Champagne, I have to interrupt you, because my time is very limited. I just wanted to know whether your collaboration with the territorial government was working well.

Mr. Blais, you talked about the importance of enumerating the rights holders instead of just estimating how many there are, as the act says. The Conservative Party has fought for the obligation to enumerate these rights holders to be included and clearly codified in the new Official Languages Act.

What would the impact be, where you are, of an enumeration rather than just an estimate?

[Jean-Sébastien Blais]

The answer is simple. There are 45,000 of us in Yukon, which is not very many. If there was an estimate and the participation rate was low, the data would definitely not be disclosed based on statistical reliability. So it is in our interests to count the rights holders, to make sure the data can be disclosed. As well, that would give us relatively accurate figures about the situation in rural areas. The fact that people live in a rural community or made the choice to live there does not mean that they should have less data released to the territorial government. It is important to do a count to get a better understanding of the situation, and not end up with undisclosed figures.

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

So we need a true picture, to give you the tools you need, because ultimately there is money attached to all of this.

[Jean-Sébastien Blais]

Yes.

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

Thank you. I would have liked to ask you a lot more questions, but I only have two minutes left, so I am going to move on to our other witness.

Mr. Henry, I would first like to thank you. If my information is correct, you are the first one who responded to the questionnaire. If people from other school boards are listening, I invite them to respond as well. You are an example for others to follow in this regard.

Can you tell us what impact a separate memorandum for teaching French as a first language would have? You suggested in the questionnaire that French immersion be separated from francophone instruction in the case of official language minority communities. Can you give us more details about that, please?

[Paul E. Henry]

Thank you for the question, Mr. Godin.

Personally, I belong to a French first language school board. It is important for us to maintain this service for parents. This is particularly the case, given that we have a very interesting situation where I am. Immigration enables us to recruit growing numbers of students from places like francophone African countries and the West Indies. The challenge we face often emerges when they arrive, since in some cases they are initially referred to English-language school boards in places like Toronto and Ottawa, for example.

In Sudbury, this is less of a problem. The presence of French as a first language in our elementary, secondary and postsecondary institutions means that parents have some degree of choice in the matter. When the students arrive in Canada with their parents, they want to be able to choose French as a first language. What changes things, in my opinion, is being able to direct them to a French first language school board.

Some parents choose an anglophone school board that offers a French immersion program. It is common for immersion programs to break down over time and end up being eliminated because of insufficient funding. That is always their problem.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Thank you, Mr. Henry. We have gone well over the six minutes.

Before continuing, I note that there is going to be a vote in the House in 30 minutes. If there is unanimous consent, we can continue the meeting until 25 minutes before the vote. Is there agreement?

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

I propose that it be 20 minutes.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Right.

So we will move on to the next set of questions. I would ask the witnesses to excuse this interruption, but these are the vicissitudes of parliamentary life.

Mr. Lightbound, the floor is yours for six minutes.

[Joël Lightbound, Liberal, Louis-Hébert, QC]

Thank you.

Thanks to Mr. Blais and Mr. Champagne for participating in this meeting from Yukon, a magnificent territory I had the good fortune to visit in 2018. It was on the occasion of the announcement of federal funding for Yukon University. I observed the vitality of the francophone community. I also met with my friend Vincent Larochelle, who played a role on the school board and to whom I offer my indirect greetings.

Mr. Blais, you spoke about the impact of the northern and rural factors on what you are able to accomplish. Does the funding you receive from the federal government acknowledge this reality?

[Jean-Sébastien Blais]

That is a very good question. Thank you for asking it.

On the periodic projects, I would note that in the case of the Paul-Émile Mercier Secondary School Community Centre, we had received substantial support from the federal government, in the amount of about $7 million. For ad hoc projects, we can sometimes negotiate increases to the envelopes. However, from what we understand, there is no factor in the official languages in education program formula at present to take the additional costs associated with northern reality into account.

In our view, it would be beneficial to review that formula in order for the difference in the cost of living and in the costs of construction and program development to be considered, and Mr. Champagne will be able to give his views on that.