Official Languages Committee on April 6th, 2022

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Good afternoon, everyone. I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 15 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Official Languages.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format. Members are attending in person or using the Zoom application.

Given the ongoing pandemic situation and in light of the recommendations from health authorities to remain healthy and safe, all those attending the meeting in person should follow the directives of the Board of Internal Economy.

I thank members in advance for their cooperation.

When speaking, please speak slowly and clearly, as I am doing.

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As regards interpretation, those of you who are on Zoom have the choice at the bottom of your screen of either Floor, English or French.

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Pursuant to Standing Order 108(3)(f) and the motion adopted by the committee on Monday, January 31, 2022, the committee is resuming its study on francophone immigration to Canada and Quebec.

I would now like to welcome our witnesses.

I apologize for my throaty Gerry Boulet-like voice. I'll try not to sneeze or sniffle near the microphone. I wanted to chair the meeting all the same.

In the first hour, we have Charles Castonguay, retired professor of mathematics and statistics.

We also have Alexandre Cédric Doucet, president of the Acadian Society of New Brunswick, and Ali Chaisson, its executive Director.

Liane Roy, president of the Fédération des communautés francophones et acadienne du Canada, and Alain Dupuis, its executive director, are also present.

Lastly, from the Société nationale de l'Acadie, we have Martin Théberge, president, and Véronique Mallet, executive director.

Each of the organizations will have five minutes for opening remarks, after which we will proceed with a period of questions from the members of the Standing Committee on Official Languages. I will signal to you when you have about one minute left.

And with that, I give the floor to Mr. Castonguay for five minutes.

[Prof. Charles Castonguay, Retired Professor of Mathematics and Statistics, As an Individual]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I would like to share with you some thoughts on how immigration could help stabilize Canada's linguistic duality most effectively.

Low fertility undermines both official language populations in Canada. The fact that francophone and non-official-language minorities are being assimilated into the English community offsets the low fertility of the anglophone majority. However, assimilation into English weakens Canada's francophone minority, and its inability to assimilate its fair share of non-official-language immigrants even more so, including in Quebec.

As a result, the weight of the French-language minority is constantly declining overall across Canada, outside and even in Quebec, since the turn of the century. All these trends are expected to continue for the foreseeable future. Consequently, it's high time we changed the linguistic ground rules in Canada.

Using immigration to reinforce Canada's francophone minority might be a partial solution. The best way to do that would be, first, to increase the percentages of French-mother-tongue immigrants and francotrope non-official-language immigrants who are likely to be assimilated to French rather than English. Second, those groups should be directed to regions of Canada where the francophone minority is still strong enough to integrate them successfully. The most appropriate regions for that purpose are, in descending order of effectiveness, Quebec, New Brunswick and eastern and northern Ontario.

It clearly isn't enough merely to promote francotrope and French-mother-tongue immigration to regions outside Quebec. According to the most recent census, 2.5 million non-official-language immigrants outside Quebec had assimilated to English. Those 2.5 million immigrants included several hundreds of thousands of francotropes. By contrast, a minuscule 14,000 immigrants assimilated to French. Censuses have even revealed that, outside Quebec, New Brunswick and eastern and northern Ontario, most French-mother-tongue immigrants assimilate to English starting in the first generation.

Canada's francophone minority now represents no more than 20% of the total population. To help stabilize that number, at least 20% of immigration to Canada should consist of either francotropes or French-mother-tongue speakers. Furthermore, as Quebec comprises 90% of the country's francophone population, Canada should encourage 90% of its francotrope and French-mother-tongue immigrants to settle in Quebec. That's the only way immigration has any chance of effectively helping to stabilize Canada's linguistic duality.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Thank you, Mr. Castonguay.

You completed your presentation in four minutes.

Would you like to take 30 seconds to say more?

[Prof. Charles Castonguay]

No. With your permission, I'd prefer to spend the time speaking with the committee members.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

All right. That will be a pleasure.

We now yield the floor to Alexandre Cédric Doucet, president of the Acadian Society of New Brunswick, or SANB.

You have five minutes.

[Alexandre Cédric Doucet, President, Acadian Society of New Brunswick]

Good afternoon, Mr. Chair and members of the Standing Committee on Official Languages.

My name is Alexandre Cédric Doucet, and I am president of the Acadian Society of New Brunswick, the organization that represents the Acadians and francophones of the province of New Brunswick. I am accompanied today by Ali Chaisson, executive director of SANB.

Thank you very much for inviting SANB to appear before your committee as part of its study on francophone immigration to Canada and Quebec.

Immigration is an especially important area of intervention for the Acadian nation. In New Brunswick, in particular, where French is the mother tongue of some one-third of the population, immigration policies and programs have an essential role to play in maintaining the demographic weight of the francophone community, one that is protected by section 16.1 of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms. I should also point out that the governments of Canada and New Brunswick are therefore required under the charter to ensure that their immigration policies and programs do not assist one community at the expense of the other and, at the very least, that they maintain the demographic weight of the minority community.

Unfortunately, what the Acadian nation of New Brunswick has witnessed in the province is a very disturbing reality. New Brunswick's francophone community has not benefited from immigration to the same degree as the anglophone community. This is an area where the federal government has undermined the Acadian nation by treating it in the same way as the rest of Canada.

It goes without saying that federal immigration policies can enhance the vitality of the francophone minorities without taking into consideration the specific linguistic composition of those provinces. With a francophone population of approximately 32%, New Brunswick requires permanent, customized federal government immigration support to help it maintain and develop that population. This is because New Brunswick's unique linguistic balance is disturbed every time the percentage of francophone newcomers falls below the percentage of francophones living in the province.

For example, the federal government's target of 4.4% of francophone immigration outside Quebec does not reflect New Brunswick's specificity. If applied to New Brunswick, the 4.4% francophone immigration rate is in fact an assimilation rate. Moreover, in its 2014 New Brunswick francophone immigration action plan, the provincial government gave itself until 2020 for the number of francophone immigrants settling in the province to reflect its linguistic makeup. However, after failing to meet that 2020 target, the government pushed it back to 2023.

Bearing that in mind, we strongly encourage the Standing Committee on Official Languages to recommend that the Government of Canada negotiate an agreement with New Brunswick that reflects the linguistic and constitutional specificity of the only officially bilingual province in the country. More specifically, it should consult the New Brunswick government and concerned representatives of both official language communities and negotiate and adopt a five-year agreement on support for the distinct educational and cultural institutions of both communities to ensure their protection and promotion. That five-year agreement should focus on primary and secondary education, early childhood, post-secondary education, health and, of course, immigration.

According to projections derived from a baseline scenario, by 2036, the francophone population of New Brunswick will have fallen closer to one-quarter of the total population, rather than one-third, as is currently the case. An annual 10% of francophone immigration to Canada outside Quebec would help to slow the decline in New Brunswick and to reach a francophone population percentage of 30% in 2036.

To do that, the province must be granted a federal quota of at least 15% of the francophone immigration target over the next few years in order to maintain growth in its Acadian and francophone population and thus avoid decline. Engineering that increase will be no easy task: raising the number of francophone immigrants means expanding funding for institutions and integration services and reinforcing the francophone support system. Greater financial and human resources will have to be introduced to support efforts to meet the target so we can inform the New Brunswick population and increase its awareness of diversity, inclusion and multiculturalism.

In short, increasing the number of francophone immigrants in the province would help maintain or expand the francophone population. However, our hosting capacity must be taken into consideration in this process because it will have a significant impact on our retention rate. Initiatives will also have to be funded to respond to those social challenges and to help us learn to live together.

I appeal to your courage and sense of responsibility as statesmen and stateswomen. A bright future lies ahead for Canada and Acadie. We are at a veritable crossroads. It is up to you to decide the direction of this major Canadian project and its distinct implementation within our language minority communities.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Thank you, Mr. Doucet.

We will now continue with the brand new president of the Fédération des communautés francophones et acadienne du Canada.

Ms. Roy, I believe this is your first visit to the committee.

As committee chair, I am pleased to give you the floor. You have five minutes.

[Liane Roy, President, Fédération des communautés francophones et acadienne du Canada]

Mr. Chair and members of the committee, I am speaking to you today from Moncton, New Brunswick, which is part of the traditional land of the Micmac people. I am accompanied by the executive director of the FCFA, Alain Dupuis, who is joining us from Ottawa.

Thank you for this opportunity to discuss the progressive new francophone immigration target that the FCFA du Canada introduced on Monday.

Members of the committee, the clerk has distributed to you some tables that will accompany my remarks and help you to follow my presentation and the figures they contain.

As you know, in 2003, the federal government established a target of 4.4% of French-speaking immigrants to be admitted outside Quebec every year. That target was to be met in 2008, but the deadline has been pushed back to 2023.

In the past 18 years, we have seen very little progress in meeting that target. Annual results have rarely exceeded 2%. In 2021, the rate was 1.95%. During that time, the demographic weight of the francophone and Acadian communities fell from 4.4% in 2001 to 3.8 % in 2016. If this trend continues, it will be 3.1% in 2036.

As I said when we revealed our restorative target, a major change is needed. We can no longer continue on the same path. The situation is now so harmful that remedies are called for. Which is why we have requested that the government mobilize the resources to achieve a target of 12% by 2024, rising to 20% in 2036.

We didn't pull these numbers out of a hat. They come from a serious demographic study conducted for the FCFA by the Sociopol corporation. Based on a Statistics Canada model and data, it shows what we will need to restore the demographic weight of our communities to 4.4% by 2036. That goal was incidentally set by the government itself and announced twice, first in the action plan for official languages 2018‑23 and then in the official languages reform document released in February 2021. To meet it, we will have to do francophone immigration in a completely different way using all resources at our disposal. For years, the government has relied on general immigration programs such as express entry to meet its target. That hasn't worked.

We need a francophone immigration policy that includes specific programs and measures designed to address specific realities. Those measures must include a distinct francophone economic immigration program that meets the needs of Canadian francophone communities and employers. They will have to provide specific francophone components for family class sponsorship, refugees and provincial nominee programs. Lastly, the communities will have to play a leading role in selecting francophone immigrants. They will also have to facilitate entry by international francophone students by lowering the barriers preventing them from obtaining visas and study permits. We also recommend that the pathway from temporary to permanent residence introduced for a limited time last year be made permanent for francophone candidates.

Above all, additional support must be provided to the francophone and Acadian communities so they can engage fully in all immigration phases, whether it be international promotion, improved French-language reception and settlement services, mobilizing employers for recruitment purposes or developing welcoming and inclusive communities to ensure success for those who settle there.

The francophone and Acadian communities have been working hard to meet the immigration challenge for the past 20 years. We have proven that we have the necessary expertise and know-how to create the francophonie of the future, a diversified and pluralist francophonie. However, that francophonie will exist only if the government adopts this restorative target and genuinely provides the means to achieve it.

Thank you. I am now ready to answer your questions.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Thank you, Ms. Roy.

We will conclude with the Société nationale de l'Acadie and its president, Mr. Théberge.

You have the floor for five minutes, Mr. Théberge.

[Martin Théberge, President, Société nationale de l'Acadie]

Good afternoon, everyone.

The Société nationale de l'Acadie, or SNA, of which I am president, is a non-profit organization that is the voice of francophone representative associations and francophone youth associations in the Atlantic provinces. The Comité atlantique sur l'immigration francophone, or CAIF, is a regional consultation mechanism that SNA created to encourage all stakeholders to work together and to speak with one voice. It is in that capacity that I am before you today.

My name is Martin Théberge, and I am accompanied by my colleague Véronique Mallet, who is our executive director.

Francophone immigration is essential if we are to thrive. The declining birth rate, outmigration, an aging population and, especially, linguistic assimilation are factors that we can fight only if the francophone population increases, and it must necessarily do so through immigration. On these issues, SNA supports and congratulates the Fédération des communautés francophones et acadienne, or FCFA, for its recent recommendations.

Despite the urgent nature of the situation, the contribution that immigration has made in our community is still below the level of our needs. According to the report released by the Office of the Commissioner of Official Languages in November 2021, francophone immigrants represent approximately 7% of all immigrants to the Atlantic region, 15% in New Brunswick and less than 4% in Prince Edward Island, Nova Scotia and Newfoundland and Labrador. These rates reflect neither the demographic weight of the francophone population of New Brunswick, which is 32%, nor that of the other three Atlantic provinces as a whole, which is 11.9%.

Our four provincial governments are aware of the importance of francophone immigration. Each one has its own plan and wishes to work with us through our provincial nominee program. Yet no province has reached its targets to date.

As the Commissioner of Official Languages noted in the statistical analysis study he recently submitted to you:

The 4.4% target for French-speaking minority immigration was adopted in 2003 to stem the decline in the demographic weight of the French-speaking minority population, which was 4.4% in the 2001 census.

Nearly 20 years later, our demographic weight has constantly fallen, while efforts to reach the 4.4% target, which has been pushed back to 2023, have never exceeded 2%.

In Acadie, we both attract and retain immigrants, and we have made progress on several fronts since the mid‑2000s.

Why then isn't francophone immigration increasing. Certain administrative and governmental realities have had a negative impact on francophone immigration rates. I would like to highlight a few.

International students are a class of trained and skilled immigrants to Canada. In the Atlantic region, we estimate they represent approximately one-third of francophone immigrants. There would be many more of them if their study permit applications weren't frequently denied. And while some lucky ones are actually granted permits, their permanent residence applications are often refused as well.

Consequently, we would like the federal government to examine immediately the reasons why the applications of foreign francophone students are denied and to rectify the situation by seeing that more applications are accepted. Nearly all immigration classes are in the same boat. We therefore urge the federal government to find ways to facilitate permanent residence for francophone minority immigrants.

There is also the credential recognition problem, one of the main impediments to economic integration. More than a third of immigrants questioned in the Atlantic region said they weren't really working in their areas of expertise, or indeed at all.

Since this issue is one of the points the committee is examining, I'd like to mention that CAIF is working on a feasibility study for the creation of a credential recognition centre, especially for teachers of French, a field where the need is acute. We therefore ask that the federal government take immediate action by working with professional associations to facilitate credential recognition for foreign immigrants.

In the Atlantic region, it is impossible to integrate fully without an excellent command of the English language. However, after fewer than five years of permanent residence, more than a quarter of francophone immigrants landed between 2011 and 2016 do not know enough English to conduct a conversation. Allow me to point out as well that studies show that becoming bilingual does not undermine the use of French by those immigrants.

We therefore hope that Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship Canada, or IRCC, will help its community partners make English classes available for francophone immigrants.

Lastly, IRCC cannot be the only organization that takes measures to promote francophone immigration.

In 2003, the public diplomacy program, which made it possible for SNA to conduct international promotion, was shut down. No comparable program has since been introduced to take its place.

Through its diplomatic relations, Acadie has managed, for example, to maintain a French consulate general in the Atlantic provinces, an essential instrument in attracting European immigrants. SNA has also been involved in other similar measures and promotions.

We therefore implore the federal government to view the francophone immigration issue in a broader, international relations perspective and immediately commit to developing a francophone diplomacy strategy—

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Thank you.

[Martin Théberge]

—that will support the new francophone immigration policy.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Thank you, Mr. Théberge

I extended your speaking time by 20 seconds because Mr. Castonguay didn't use all the minutes he had.

I'm strict when it comes to speaking time, as my colleagues know.

We will begin the first round of questions. The representatives of each party will have respectively six minutes. We will begin with the first vice-chair of the Standing Committee on Official Languages, Joël Godin.

You have six minutes.

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to take this opportunity to express my disappointment. The House of Commons is currently proceeding with speeches on Bill C‑13, An Act for the Substantive Equality of Canada's Official Languages, while the Standing Committee on Official Languages is sitting. I find that awkward on the government's part, and I wanted to say so here in committee.

Thanks to the witnesses for being here today. I believe that the representatives of the four organizations can agree on one point: there's a serious problem with francophone immigration.

You've all shown that it's time to act.

Mr. Castonguay, my first question is for you. You talk about raising the targets. As a parliamentarian, I think that's an easy solution. However, I need to draw on your knowledge to determine how we can reach our targets. I agree with you that they must be raised, but it's easy to raise a number. Would you please give us some specific recommendations on how we can meet them?

That question is also for the representatives of the other three organizations. Would you please give us some specific recommendations on this?

I invite the witnesses to suggest two or three recommendations in quick succession to assist us in drafting a report that's effective and provides Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship Canada with the necessary tools.

Mr. Castonguay, you may begin.

[Prof. Charles Castonguay]

I'm not an expert on immigration or selecting and recruiting immigrants. However, there's obviously an enormous problem not just outside Quebec, as I mentioned in my remarks, but also in Quebec itself. Until recently, Quebec has managed to maintain the weight of francotropes among these newcomers to—

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

Pardon me for interrupting, Mr. Castonguay. I don't want us to discuss past facts. Everyone around this table today and all the witnesses agree: we have a problem.

I'd like you to recommend measures and solutions for solving the problem.

[Prof. Charles Castonguay]

Based on what I see, the solutions will have to be developed by the Quebec government, which has expertise in recruiting and admitting francophone immigrants, and the federal government.

Something is definitely wrong with the present situation. It's total confusion. The immigrants who arrive in Quebec will now come through the foreign workers program. These are temporary workers or students who have temporary status. They enter society through their studies and work. Then they'll want to be selected as immigrants. Quebec didn't select them first. The federal government has complete authority over those programs—

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

Pardon me for interrupting, Mr. Castonguay.

Thank you for answering my question.

I now go to Mr. Théberge from the Société nationale de l'Acadie.

You discussed the problem of the Atlantic provinces. You said that the provincial governments were aware of the problem and were prepared to work with the federal government. I'm going to ask you a very simple question: do you think the new version of the Official Languages Act will actually meet the immigration expectations of the governments of the four Atlantic provinces?

[Martin Théberge]

I think there are two parts to the answer. First, there has to be a connection. That's the most important factor. As I said, you can't deal with immigration in isolation. There has to be a connection with the Official Languages Act.

Second, there also has to be a connection with an international diplomatic strategy. It's absolutely necessary that the measures support what the community wants, and the work the community does in cooperation with the provincial governments also has to support the government.

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Théberge.

Now I'll go to another witness, Mr. Doucet from the Acadian Society of New Brunswick.

Mr. Doucet, you also said that the Canadian government must work with the New Brunswick government. You also made the same observation as everyone else, and you mentioned a five-year agreement. We're aware there's an enormous amount of catching up to do.

If you had a magic wand, what would you say to parliamentarians to provide a quick solution to this problem that has dragged on for many years?

[Alexandre Cédric Doucet]

Thank you for your question.

I think I should remind parliamentarians that section 95 of the Constitution Act, 1867 specifically provides that immigration is an area of shared jurisdiction. Subsection 16.1(1) of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms provides that the two official language communities in New Brunswick have a right to distinct institutions. So it's supplemented with immigration, which is an area of shared jurisdiction. Like Quebec, New Brunswick should have far more powers and much more funding to ensure its own immigration.

Consequently, we want a devolution of federal government authority to the provincial government of New Brunswick so we can manage immigration on our own.

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

I'd like to ask Ms. Roy a question, but I don't have a lot of time left.

I'd just like to know what kind of funding you expect, in the budget that's tabled tomorrow, for the immigration and official languages component.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Thank you, Mr. Godin.

If she wishes, Ms. Roy may respond to you later as she answers other questions.

We now yield the floor to Mr. Drouin for six minutes.

[Francis Drouin, Liberal, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I want to thank all the witnesses here this afternoon.

I also want to applaud the questions that my colleague Mr. Godin asked. I know we agree with each other on the international francophonie, although we may disagree on the local francophonie. He may take issue with the fact that the Standing Committee on Official Languages is sitting while Bill C-13 is being debated in the House, but I personally feel this is a great opportunity for members other than those of the Standing Committee on Official Languages to speak on behalf of their communities. I think we should emphasize that because the official languages belong to us all, not just the members of the Standing Committee on Official Languages.

On that issue, Ms. Roy, I don't know if you knew you were going to appear before the Standing Committee on Official Languages this week. However, I did hear your statement about the targets the federal government has to meet. As you well know, we haven't met our 4.4% targets for decades.

Is the FCFA establishing ties with the international francophone communities in order to attract francophones to Canada?

[Liane Roy]

Going back to Mr. Godin's earlier question, we'd like the budget to provide more funding for recruitment, which some of our partners are doing. The SNA is doing good recruitment, and the people of New Brunswick are as well. So it would be good to have funding so we could recruit people from francophone populations who might come to our communities.

We definitely foresee it in the measures we're suggesting to the government respecting a francophone immigration policy that it might establish.

That policy is a very important factor. In fact, at the start of the week, we suggested that a whole series of programs might be included in it. The possibility of conducting our recruiting effort is entirely consistent with those measures.