Official Languages Committee on April 6th, 2022

[Cyriaque Kiti, Chief Executive Officer, Afremac Consulting Inc]

Good afternoon to all the committee members.

I feel very honoured to be here today.

As Mr. Arseneault mentioned, I am the chief executive officer of a company that specializes in business and human resources development. I'd like to take this opportunity to add that I'm also here as Benin's Honorary Consul to New Brunswick. Benin decided to step up its economic relations with the province of New Brunswick, and accordingly established its honorary consulate two years ago. This genuinely gives me a good opportunity to work with you.

On immigration, I'd like to quote Albert Camus: "Yes, I have a country—the French language." French is a language that blends and binds. Canada is a strong, brilliant country that is respected around the world for its bilingualism. Its attraction is its quality of life. It's known for its strong economy, its political stability and its cultural and linguistic diversity. Most Canadians speak two, if not more, languages. It's therefore important to preserve this linguistic asset, and even more important to strengthen it by allowing all Canadian citizens to have access and proximity to their second language.

By the way, when I hear my children switching back and forth between English and French, I'm impressed.

The Canadian authorities, particularly those who handle immigration and official languages, should continue to strive to make cohabitation between anglophones and francophones possible. Francophones also need to acknowledge that the language of Molière is full of rules and complexities. They can therefore be indulgent by supporting and encouraging efforts made by politicians to speak it. It's pleasant to hear an anglophone who does not understand French make an effort to say a few words in that language. We francophones are not shy about trying to express ourselves in English. Basically, it's possible to learn how to live together and perhaps change an entire country.

Consequently, I'm very honoured to be telling you that the 4.4% francophone immigration target, which according to everyone who spoke before me, is difficult to meet, has a built-in paradox. What I mean is I don't understand why we can't meet this target, which is certainly very reasonable from my standpoint. To get there, I have a few suggestions we can talk about.

First, it would be very important to better inform and better educate the host communities. This means that the people who are responsible for organizing the immigration process need to be better informed about what immigration is and what it gives to Canada. As you know, some perceive immigration as a threat, while people in business see it as an opportunity.

Second, what's required is a combined effort by the federal and provincial governments, and business organizations around the world, more specifically the chambers of commerce and educational institutions. Direct involvement by the new communities themselves and the new immigrants is also essential.

Third, we need to identify the heavily francophone countries full of dynamic young people capable of integrating readily and quickly.

Fourth, it's important to identify the Canadian organizations that could play an important role in easing the procedural and recruitment burden for businesses.

And then I would say that it's also very important for governments to invest in preparing newcomers.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Thank you Mr. Kiti.

You will be able to go on at greater length as you answer the questions that follow.

I will now give the floor to Mr. Laberge for five minutes.

[Alain Laberge, Director General, Franco-Manitoban School Division]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Good afternoon to all the members of the Standing Committee on Official Languages.

I'd like to acknowledge that I'm currently living in Lorette, a small village in southeastern Manitoba covered by Treaty No. 1, ^x the traditional territory of the Anishinabe, Cree, Oji-Cree, Dakota and Dene, and in particular the ancestral land of the Métis Nation.

I'd like to thank you for inviting me to testify on behalf of the Franco-Manitoban School Division, the only school division that covers all of Manitoba, on the francophone side, of course, with 24 schools and about 6,000 students who share a common language, French, and that provides a cultural and social picture of our magnificent francophone minority community.

You will no doubt have guessed that my comments today will be directly related to education. I know that education is not a federal jurisdiction, but rather a provincial one. However, as some of the people who spoke earlier mentioned, immigration cannot be examined in isolation.

I can't speak about the importance of francophone immigration to minority communities without mentioning the importance of inclusion as opposed to integration. I don't want to get into the semantic details of these two words, which are often used in different ways, but which we don't always understand. What is crucial to understand is that despite all the targets we would like to meet, successful immigration needs an inclusive and welcoming society. Without a form of social inclusion in which students and parents are stakeholders and contributors to the community, immigration will remain an attempt to integrate newcomers who have to adapt and who create ghettos. That's the worst thing that could possibly happen to our francophone communities.

In the document containing the statistical analysis of the 4.4% target, Raymond Théberge said, in 2003, that the primary objective of the strategic framework took a special interest in studying that 4.4% target. The goal was to increase the number of French-speaking immigrants to bolster the demographic weight in francophone minority-language communities.

The figures from the last census in 2019 showed that Canada had acquired 340,000 new residents. Of these, Manitoba had welcomed approximately 19,000, only 300 of whom spoke French, for a percentage of 1.5%. To this could be added those who speak both languages, but honestly, in the French-language education system, families that identify as speaking two languages rarely attend francophone schools, often owing to unfamiliarity with them—about which I will speak a little later—or simply because they are disillusioned about the fact that we have a province and a country that claims to be bilingual, but that is not.

So the target was 4.4%. In my view, that should be a starting point rather than an end in itself. It has not been reached since 2003, there's a further decline every year, and the gap continues to grow, meaning that our communities are stumbling along like a wagon with a broken wheel.

Without francophones, it's hard to create an educational community or a community school, a term we use in New Brunswick, which is very dear to us. It's also health, the economy, the arts, culture, sports, etc.

Unlike the majority-language schools, the minority schools are simply not required to provide education and programming that would be called "educational". There's a whole component made up of people's values, culture, heritage and identity that is very important and that there wouldn't be in a first-language school.

It's important to point to the Canadian Charter of Rights that now allows for rights holders in our schools, and to the parents who protested 25 years ago in front of the school division to ensure that we could have the "by and for".

So although it's a provincial jurisdiction, why should education and immigration go hand-in-hand? Immigration plays a key role in expanding the minority community school network. Most of the time, it's the place where the francophone community can get together, the key meeting point. The school is where a future generation can prosper in a spirit of equity and social justice.

I'll finish up with a small anecdote. I meet many parents who come to our schools. The first thing they ask is why they can't work in French in Manitoba? Why can't there be a French-language clinic in Manitoba? Why can't they be served in French? There is a feeling of disillusionment that leads them to withdraw their children from francophone schools to place them in anglophone schools because they want to make sure that they will be able to find a job when they grow up.

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Thank you, Mr. Laberge.

We're going to start the first round of questions. The questions will come from each of the political parties, one at a time, for six minutes each. We'll begin with you Mr. Godin. Please go ahead.

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to thank the witnesses for their contributions to this committee meeting.

My first question is for Mr. Mohamadou Sarr.

You mentioned that two-thirds of the students remain in Canada after they graduate. I think that's a development tool. I am not using the expression in the pejorative sense, quite the contrary. The capacity to attract students strengthens immigration, because these are people who will stay here after graduation. If we are going to target one group in particular, we might as well focus on people who are going to stay here.

How can we attract more students? Can you make a few suggestions for us? The fact remains the same. I was saying to the first group of witnesses that we all know that francophone immigration has been a major problem for several years now. What we want right now is to find solutions and prepare a report.

Can you, Mr. Sarr, give us one or two recommendations on how to be more effective at attracting more students?

[Mohamadou Sarr]

Thank you very much.

You're absolutely right. I fully agree with you. Many of the problems lie with the red tape. There are many applications and many institutions that admit students from abroad, but in the paperwork, many permits are refused because there is no evidence that the student will leave after graduating.

The concrete solution I can suggest already exists in Quebec. It involves doing what is done for students from France and Belgium, with exemptions for lump sums, by which I mean tuition fees, particularly in areas where there is a large gap that needs closing. I'm talking about Quebec but there is also Université Saint-Anne in Nova Scotia, and postsecondary institutions in New Brunswick that are having problems. We could make it easier for students to come here, particularly, as I was saying earlier, Canada did not have to pay for their elementary and secondary schooling. Having these foreign students come here would be beneficial.

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

I understand your recommendation, but ever since we began studying francophone immigration, we've found that the problem is not the number of students who want to come, but rather resistance to the process, the red tape and the controls in some regions of the planet, like the African region, which we do not appear to have sized up properly. We don't really know whether it's because of the system or the criteria used.

Beyond financial assistance, how can we sort all that out?

[Mohamadou Sarr]

That's exactly what we don't know, what's in the black box. In other words, do we really want to welcome francophones, but also maintain a certain balance, and not have too many black people all at once or people who are wearing veils. It's certainly more difficult to attract someone from countries like France and Belgium.

I receive calls every day from people who come from these parts of the world, who want to come to Canada and who are submitting applications. We help them.

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

Excuse me for interrupting, Mr. Sarr.

What I understand from your recommendation is that there ought to be financial assistance for some students to cover part of the tuition fees.

I have a question for you, Mr. Kiti. You are from Benin and I believe you live in New Brunswick. Is that correct?

[Cyriaque Kiti]

Yes.

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

You are probably in touch with young people in Benin. I'd like to know how things are done over there. There would appear to be a problem of access and mentoring to make the application process easier, to help fill out the forms properly and meet the deadlines.

Can you tell us what it's like for a young person who wants to come and study in Canada?

[Cyriaque Kiti]

Certainly.

What's happening right now in Benin, if not in Africa generally, is that people are poorly informed about Canada's requirements. Even among ourselves, translating from English to French or French to English sometimes causes us problems. After a quarter of a century of living in Canada, I sometimes want to fill out documents that I don't understand online because there are several questions that look identical or very similar. People therefore need to be better informed about Canadian procedures.

The second thing that happens in Africa, including Benin, is that many applications are sent to Accra, Ghana, which is where the Benin applications are generally processed. As it happens, many are refused. Sometimes it's for minor reasons, such as financial requirements. We know of parents who are very rich and who have the means to pay for their children's education. But the visas are rejected simply because the parents don't want to reveal how much money they have. Couldn't there be a way of sorting that out?

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Thank you, Mr. Kiti.

You can give us further details in connection in response to another question.

The next questions will come from Ms. Patricia Lattanzio.

Ms. Lattanzio, over to you for five minutes.

[Patricia Lattanzio, Liberal, Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Before starting, I'd like to thank the three witnesses for having spent their time with us this afternoon.

I'd like to ask Mr. Kiti a thing or two.

I share your opinion, Mr. Kiti, when you say that being bilingual can only contribute to our country and to Canadians and that you like how we can live together in diversity. I agree with you.

To return to the question, you made some suggestions. I'd like to hear your comments about your fourth idea, about investing in preparing newcomers.

Could you tell us more about this?

[Cyriaque Kiti]

Preparing newcomers would require a contribution from the welcoming communities. Of course here, in most provinces, we have communities that need to be in contact with local agents, people living in communities in Canada who can get this information to different countries.

I believe that I could inform a lot of people. Mr. Sarr could certainly do so in his country. We need to have a role, and the communities need to play an important role, in preparing all the people who want to immigrate.

Very briefly, let's take the example of an Acadian who wants to prepare Africans to come and live in Canada. That's a problem from the get-go. An Acadian would not be an ideal person to prepare Africans, because the Acadian will not understand some of the socio-cultural contexts of the African community. We therefore need to play a more important role in terms of deciding what preparation is needed before other Africans come hee to live.

[Patricia Lattanzio, Liberal, Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC]

Are you suggesting establishing immigrant reception centres in the Canadian communities?

[Cyriaque Kiti]

It's not necessarily creating new centres. The existing centres can already refer to the communities and to people like me or others. If we want to get workers from Benin or Togo or the Ivory Coast, we know the information these people require in order to come and live here. Sometimes too, these people have dreams that they don't find when they get here. Sometimes people think that once they get to Canada everything will be easy, when in fact we work harder in Canada than in most other countries.

[Patricia Lattanzio, Liberal, Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC]

How does it work in Benin for a person who would like to come here? For example, let's look at an international university student who applies.

What are the obstacles they will face to come to Canada?

[Cyriaque Kiti]

The greatest obstacle is definitely the cost. Evidence on finances is required to come and study in Canada, as well as evidence—which I heard Ms. Roy mention—to the effect that after graduating, they will return to their country.

You are well aware of the in generic response to the fact that we were not convinced. It's vague and meaningless, but thousands of visas are denied for unknown reasons, which Mr. Sarr just called the black box. There are cases for which we simply don't understand why the visa was refused, when the applicant met all the criteria. I would like to ask the members here and will take this opportunity to ask you.

Let's take this opportunity to ask committee members to make an effort to get a clear answer, for every visa that is refused, as to why it was refused? Rejected visas could then provide information for future applicants.

[Patricia Lattanzio, Liberal, Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC]

In short, you're saying that the refusal alone is not helpful and that any refusals should require a rationale. Is that correct?

[Cyriaque Kiti]

Yes. There needs to be a rationale for each refusal. That would enable future visa applicants to better prepare themselves.

[Patricia Lattanzio, Liberal, Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC]

Okay.

Thank you, Mr. Kiti.

My next question is for you, Mr. Laberge. You said that there were 6,000 francophone students in Manitoba and that for some years now there has been some growth, but not enough

Can you give us your opinion of this minimal growth?

[Alain Laberge]

We are working closely with organizations like Accueil francophone and the Francophone Immigration Networks, the RIFs. What we have noticed is that many people who arrive here are not directed to the right places. As my two colleagues mentioned, many people are refused because of small details, which means that we don't get enough of the people we need to have in our schools and our systems.

The same is true of our employees. People from Africa, the Maghreb, France and Belgium are already certified but are not allowed to teach in Canada because the provinces don't recognize their certificates or degrees. They travel across an ocean, enter a country and are jobless because their skills are not recognized.

I think that the major problem is that we bring some of them here and abandon them after 12 or 15 months. We stop mentoring them even though this mentoring is extremely important.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Thank you Mr. Laberge and Ms. Lattanzio.

Next up is Mr. Beaulieu.

You also have the floor for six minutes.

[Mario Beaulieu, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Good afternoon.

On the one hand, I like the suggestion of exempting students from tuition fees or at least a portion of the fees. I think that in Quebec, there is a program that allows francophone students to pay the same tuition fees as Quebec students, which are lower.

On the other hand, we have a big problem with the rejection rate. For example, only 15% of applicants from Algeria are accepted. For Benin, in 2020, I think it was 17%. The same is the case for most of the francophone African countries, including Algeria, and it's also the case for Haiti. However, for India and some other countries, the acceptance rate is 50% or more. These rates are much higher. It's hard to understand. In my riding there are many applicants for temporary permits who are waiting for an answer and not getting it. They're being told that they have not convinced the authorities they would not remain in Quebec or Canada. And yet, at the same time, we claim to be are in favour of having foreign students stay here permanently.

Among all the people you know, you must surely know some African students who applied for study permits. What reasons were given for these rejections? What do you think can explain these high rejection rates?

These people have been accepted by a Quebec university education institution, but then refused by the federal government. Based on your experience, can you tell us why?