Official Languages Committee on Feb. 2nd, 2022

[Guillaume Rousseau]

The answer is no.

If we really want to promote French, we need to protect the right to work in French more, and not necessarily the right to work in English. The logic of the Charter of the French Language is that employees have the fundamental right to work in French. This does not mean that employees are prohibited from working in English. Indeed, it will be possible in certain cases, but it will not be a fundamental right.

The federal bill could go in this direction; employees would have the fundamental right to work in French, in Quebec and in other regions with a high concentration of French speakers. In my view, this approach would draw more precisely on the Charter of the French Language.

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

In this case, in the bill to modernize the Official Languages Act, should it read “shall” rather than “may”?

That is the comment I wanted to make. Mr. Rousseau, thank you for clarifying that for us.

I will now turn to Mr. Termote.

Mr. Termote, you stated that francophone immigration had no effect on the decline of French. Earlier, you suggested that francophones should make more babies. Now you are also saying that francophone immigration is not a solution to stop the decline of French.

What should be done regarding francophone immigration?

[Marc Termote]

We need francophone immigration, that's obvious. What the Statistics Canada study published last year showed is that no matter how much you increase the percentage of French-speaking immigrants, it has little impact on the decline of French. The hypothesis has even been put forward that immigrants could only enter Quebec if they were French-speaking and came from a country where the official language is French, and the conclusion was that even that would only slow the decline a little. Indeed, there are other phenomena at play, such as the low birth rate.

In addition, when we talk about acting on the composition of immigration, we forget that the percentage of immigrants in Quebec is 12%. So we're trying to act on that figure. I understand why we always want to intervene on this level, because we can't intervene on the birth rate. So we choose to intervene on the immigration front.

I can't help but say that we are indeed asking a lot from immigrants. They are asked to do jobs that we no longer want to do; they are asked to go to the regions because we don't want to go there; they are asked to have children because we don't want to have any; and they are also asked to switch to French overnight. But even if they did that, it wouldn't be enough.

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Termote.

On the other hand, I can tell you that living in the regions is great.

[Marc Termote]

Yes, absolutely.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Thank you very much. I second Mr. Godin's comment, by the way.

Ms. Ashton, forgive me, I skipped your turn earlier. You have two and a half minutes.

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill—Keewatinook Aski, MB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Termote, what you said about the demographics is really interesting. In my opinion, there are certainly things that the government could do to address the low birth rate. I've just had children, but I know that many women of my generation can't think about that, because it's getting more and more expensive to have children. Just think of the cost of day care, which is much lower in Quebec than elsewhere in Canada, housing, and the cost of living in general. I think it's important to make the connection between the decline of French and the barriers many women face when deciding whether or not to have children and, if so, how many they will have.

My question is about the notion of urgency. The data you have presented today is not only interesting, but worrying. How urgent is it for the federal government to act? Other governments need to act as well, but we're dealing with the federal level here. How urgent is it to address the decline of French now?

I would like to hear from Mr. Termote first, followed by Mr. Rousseau and all the other witnesses.

[Marc Termote]

To answer your last question, the situation certainly is urgent. The more time passes, the worse the problem gets. Francophones are already on the verge of being a minority on the island of Montreal. According to Statistics Canada forecasts, in 15 years, they will represent 40% of the population.

How do you think third language immigrants arriving in Montreal will react when they see that the majority of the population around them on the island of Montreal is no longer francophone? They will no longer choose French; at that point they will choose the language of the group that is the majority in their region.

I would like to come back to Mr. Godin's question, who asked whether we should say “may” or “shall”. All the events we have seen in Switzerland and Belgium have shown that, if given the choice, immigrants choose the more socially prestigious language.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Thank you, Mr. Termote.

To conclude this third round of questions, I will hand over to our colleague Ms. Kayabaga.

Ms. Kayabaga, you have five minutes.

[Arielle Kayabaga, Liberal, London West, ON]

Thank you very much.

I'd like to thank the witnesses, who took the time to come and answer our questions.

I jotted down a few small questions during the discussions.

Mr. Rousseau, you talk about the principle of territoriality. Can you explain how that applies to francophones outside Quebec who live in a minority setting, such as Franco-Ontarians, for example?

Do you think this means that francophones who are not on Quebec territory will be left behind?

[Guillaume Rousseau]

Thank you for your question.

If we were to apply the territorial logic outside Quebec, we could proceed by determining... The measures in place to protect the language rights of francophones in these provinces constitute a minimum, and there is no question of reducing them.

We want federal law to do more for French. If we want to achieve this not only in terms of individual rights, but so that French will flourish and still be spoken for many generations to come, this is where we must concentrate our efforts geographically.

So essentially, the federal government should say, for example, that people have the right to work in French, and this right should be really well protected where there are a lot of francophones, that is, eastern Ontario and northern New Brunswick. This should be in addition to the measures already in place. There should be a minimum of rights that apply, regardless of where you are. The federal government could do more to focus its efforts geographically.

This is how a territorial approach could be applied outside Quebec. In fact, it would be applied mainly to regions bordering Quebec. This would therefore reinforce Quebec policies that are also territorialized.

[Arielle Kayabaga, Liberal, London West, ON]

Thank you for your reply.

Let me probe further. How do you think this can work seamlessly for francophones living in minority language communities?

You explain how this can work in Quebec and how the federal government can identify minority language communities. How can we get the government to understand that this is not just a Quebec issue?

You also mentioned that Bill 101 should apply to work so that people have the right to work in French at all times. Does this call into question the rights of people who speak other minority languages in Quebec?

I don't know if you understood my question.

[Guillaume Rousseau]

Yes, I understand what you're asking.

I'll start with your last point. It's important to keep in mind that there is always some tension on that front. On one hand, you have the right to work in French. On the other hand, you have laws, including Quebec laws, that provide for the right to be served in other languages.

Inherently, that causes tension, because if a government worker is called on to provide service in English, that reduces their ability to work in French. Conversely, if the worker has the right to work in French all the time, they may not provide service in English. That would result in less English-language service for those entitled to receive it. The fact that that tension exists is an important consideration, because it is inherent to the interplay of language rights. The key is to find the optimal balance between the two. It will never be all one side or all the other.

It's a bit of a zero-sum game. By broadly granting the right to be served in other languages, you inherently diminish the right to work in French, and vice versa. Keeping that in mind and being realistic are essential to find a compromise, which will never fully satisfy both sides.

When it comes to French-speaking communities outside Quebec, it's important to zero in on regions around Quebec with a high proportion of French speakers. Those are the communities where the government should step up efforts related to funding and the right to work in French. That is a realistic approach.

However, the right to work in French in western Canada, well beyond the Winnipeg area, probably isn't realistic. In terms of demographics, it wouldn't necessarily yield results. Focusing efforts on francophone regions near the border with Quebec would have a positive impact on individual rights and the vitality of the French language in the long run.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Thank you, Mr. Rousseau.

Since the members of the Standing Committee on Official Languages are forever disciplined, we can have a fourth round before our two hours run out.

In order for that to work, I'm going to cut the speaking time of members who had five minutes down to two minutes, and those who had two and a half minutes will now have one minute. That will give us time to complete a fourth round. If I'm not mistaken, that would be a record. I've never seen it done in my six years as a member, in either an in‑person meeting on the Hill or a virtual meeting.

Go ahead, Mr. Dalton. You have two minutes.

[Marc Dalton, Conservative, Pitt Meadows—Maple Ridge, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Termote, I've always thought immigration was to blame for the decline of French in the Montreal area, but I was heartened to hear you talk of improvement.

I don't quite understand how there can be a decline in the face of improvement. Are cultural networks, music, Netflix and movies having major repercussions? Are they causing people to become anglicized? Could you please talk more about that?

[Marc Termote]

I quite appreciate your question, which is entirely relevant. Immigration isn't the main cause. That's quite clear from our research, which I talked about earlier. Fertility, or low fertility rates—I should say—are the primary cause.

I believe it was Ms. Ashton who spoke earlier about the heavy demands being placed on women. I quite liked what she said. Just imagine adopting a policy that is meant to boost the birth rate or fertility rate. It's an insult to women to offer them money to have babies. The percentage of women of child-bearing age is very low. Every year in Quebec, only a few hundred thousand of them actually have children. Ethically and socially speaking, it's nearly impossible to introduce a measure like that.

The problem can't be fixed by targeting fertility rates, and the immigration impact is marginal. Those statements do not speak to a particular mindset. When making forecasts, Statistics Canada is not adopting a given attitude, and neither am I. We are making observations—that's all.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Thank you, Mr. Termote.

I will be strictly enforcing speaking time limits.

Go ahead, Mr. Drouin. You have two minutes.

[Francis Drouin, Liberal, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

Thank you.

I have two questions for Mr. Rousseau or Mr. Termote.

In this global age, young people spend a lot more time living in a virtual world, unhampered by any legislation—at least not in this country.

In the academic community, do you talk about ways of influencing the francophone world?

We have partners. We work with France and other French-speaking countries, but I struggle to see how French can be protected in a virtual world. I wonder whether that is a topic of discussion in academic circles.

[Guillaume Rousseau]

Yes, it is. It's a very timely topic, in fact.

The language legislation applies to the Internet. Under the Charter of the French Language, businesses must advertise in French, and that applies to the Internet as well. It has an impact on the language of work. If a business has to advertise online in French, it means an employee has to prepare that information digitally. Basically, language legislation applies to the Internet. If the legislation were to go further, the online impact would accordingly be broader.

When French is promoted in the physical, or real, world, it influences consumer habits, including in the virtual world. That's something to keep in mind as far as the number and impact of French-language shows are concerned. It's a way of doing things indirectly. Imposing quotas on YouTube content is another avenue, but that's a discussion for another meeting and another bill.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Thank you, Mr. Rousseau.

Go ahead, Mr. Beaulieu. You have only a minute.

[Mario Beaulieu, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

I don't think the anglophone population has a higher birth rate than the francophone population, Mr. Termote.

[Marc Termote]

The fertility rate, so the number of births per female, is slightly higher among anglophones than francophones. Overall, francophones and anglophones are in the same boat, but the major difference is that, proportionally, anglophones benefit greatly from language transfer.

[Mario Beaulieu, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

Increasing francophone immigration and adopting a territorial model that substantially increases language transfer in favour of French is a way to reverse the trend. In Wallonia, the French language isn't threatened by immigration.

[Marc Termote]

The big difference is that Wallonia takes a hardline approach in upholding its territorial policy.

As for policies aimed at bringing children—

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Thank you, Mr. Termote. Sorry to cut you off.

We now go to Ms. Ashton, also for one minute.