Official Languages Committee on Feb. 1st, 2024

[Martin Normand]

It hasn't been the same trajectory; I can guarantee you that.

There were 5,000 study permits before the pandemic. In September 2022, there were 5,000 new study permits for our institutional network. However, it's impossible to confirm that 5,000 foreign students wound up at our colleges and universities. That's a figure that would have to be verified with the institutions.

That's why we acknowledge that there has been an increase in the number of foreign students in our institutional network in recent years, but the numbers haven't just doubled in the past two years.

[Francis Drouin, Liberal, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

Since the minister's announcement, have you had any discussions with Ontario, for example, to ensure our colleges and universities are protected in the context of this measure?

[Martin Normand]

As I said earlier, ACUFC has no relations with the provinces, but our institutions have been in direct contact with Ontario's provincial authorities in recent days to discuss their concerns and to pass on the message that we're giving you today. Francophones should be part of a priority cohort and they should not be subject to the established cap.

That would make it easier for some provinces by removing the number of institutions from the equation, which would enable the other institutions to distribute more study permits.

[Francis Drouin, Liberal, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

We know the problem stems more from the private colleges and universities than the public ones. The CBC and Radio-Canada have reported several times on institutions that unfortunately promise certifications that in some instances aren't even accepted in the labour market. That has consequences.

Are you aware of that? Are you preparing more demands to ensure that governments regulate those kinds of institutions?

Even though we're discussing this problem, of which I believe, for the moment, you are somewhat a victim, I know we'll succeed. I very much hope that francophones will be able to be protected in this matter. This situation is being brought to your attention, and we're forced to take it into consideration.

Are you talking to your association's member colleges about the demands they may make to improve regulations and, consequently, the situation?

[Martin Normand]

We've been less active on that front. Our colleges have already discussed this with their provincial governments. They know that some actors are tarnishing the colleges' international reputations.

Although we've done less—because we choose our battles—Colleges and Institutes Canada, for example, our national anglophone and francophone counterpart representing the entire college sector, has done a lot of work on the issue to develop measures to deal with those kinds of recalcitrant institutions that undermine Canada's reputation.

[Francis Drouin, Liberal, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

Getting back to the main issue of international students, what economic contribution do you think those students make within your network?

[Martin Normand]

As I stated in my remarks, based on certain numbers, we can estimate that, in 2018-2019, the economic impact of foreign students amounted to $300 million at our institutions alone. That seems like an enormous number, but it actually amounts to approximately $60,000 per foreign student.

[Francis Drouin, Liberal, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

Does that $300 million figure represent tuition fees alone?

[Martin Normand]

No, it includes tuition fees and housing expenses, but also the kind of spending generated by the presence of foreign students at our institutions, housing and private businesses.

Since we estimate the impact at $300 million for 2018-2019, we may assume that it's a bit higher than that since minor growth has been observed in more recent years.

That has a significant impact, not just an economic impact that can be quantified, but also the kind of impact that's made by international students who occupy positions in rural and remote regions that wouldn't otherwise be occupied. We may therefore conclude that some small and medium-sized businesses, or SMEs, wouldn't be able to operate without the presence of foreign students on campuses.

[Francis Drouin, Liberal, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

I see.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Thank you, Mr. Drouin.

Would you please repeat the dollar amount of that impact? Is it $380 million?

[Martin Normand]

It was $300 million in 2018-2019.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Great. Thank you very much.

Mr. Beaulieu, you have the floor for two and a half minutes.

[Mario Beaulieu, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

Thank you.

According to the last census, 35.3% of students who were eligible to attend francophone schools did not do so. I believe that figure should also take into account immersion schools, which are said to promote assimilation. That definitely has an impact on students who will be continuing their education at colleges and universities.

Is there a study or any data on the number of eligible students who attend colleges and universities?

[Martin Normand]

The number we often hear, the one we've previously seen circulating, is the number of graduates from francophone secondary schools in the country—I'm excluding immersion schools here—who then enrol at francophone post-secondary educational institutions in Canada. That number has declined to approximately 50%, for all kinds of reasons. It may be because the institutions are located too far away from students' homes, for example, or because their education would cost them too much.

As we all know, for various reasons, francophone post-secondary students in Canada are more indebted than anglophone students.

If students are faced with too many obstacles, it gets hard for them to choose to study in French at the post-secondary level. That's why programs must be made more attractive.

[Mario Beaulieu, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

We're talking about institutions managed by and for francophones.

Aren't we?

[Martin Normand]

That's our 22 member institutions.

[Mario Beaulieu, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

The percentage for the immersion schools must be even lower. Do you think the 35% figure takes immersion schools into account?

[Martin Normand]

According to certain data tables prepared by Statistics Canada, that percentage does take immersion schools into account. However, the figure I can give you is the one concerning institutions managed by and for francophones from kindergarten to grade 12.

[Mario Beaulieu, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

I see.

We know that Quebec's anglophone universities have benefited enormously from the official language support programs. There was a massive imbalance until 1995.

According to certain data, for example, approximately 38% of funding was granted to Quebec's anglophone universities in 2017, including research funding. That's three or four times more than anglophones' demographic weight. Outside Quebec, the only study I have seen shows that the funding rate for francophones is lower than their demographic weight.

Do you use those numbers?

[Martin Normand]

We still use them in co-operation with the Association francophone pour le savoir, or Acfas.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

That's a good question, but your time is up, Mr. Beaulieu.

Ms. Ashton, you have the floor for two and a half minutes.

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill—Keewatinook Aski, MB]

Thank you.

I want to go back to the point I raised at the end of my intervention concerning the policy's impact on the future of our communities outside Quebec. I know people who have come to Canada to study in French and who are now contributing to our communities in many ways.

I'm extremely concerned about how the announced measure concerning francophone students will be implemented because I know how much we need people to come here.

What's your view on that subject?

[Martin Normand]

You're absolutely right. There are a lot of foreign student success stories. They came to Canada as foreign students, passed through our institutions, now occupy senior positions in the communities and are leaders of their francophone communities.

That's why I'm telling you that, if the number of foreign students falls sharply when classes resume in May or September, that will mean that many fewer graduates may be applying for permanent residence in Canada in two or three years. This is a number that's bandied about, but 90% of foreign students in our institutional network want to remain in Canada. That's a significant percentage, but, despite that, if the basin of origin significantly shrinks, far fewer foreign students will be able to choose that pathway to permanent residence.

I would also note that this is an objective of the francophone immigration policy. One of the performance indicators of that policy is growth in the number of francophone foreign students in Canada outside Quebec relative to the 2023 reference year. If the announced cap is implemented, we'd be starting at 30% or 35% under the measure used as the basic measure for assessing the policy's successes.

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill—Keewatinook Aski, MB]

Would you please repeat ACUFC's demand concerning the announcement that was made on January 22 last?