Official Languages Committee on Feb. 12th, 2024

[Gilles Grenier]

There are labour shortages in all areas, particularly in education and health care. Efforts should most certainly be made to hire more educators and teachers who can teach in French. On the other hand, it's not easy, because there are indeed labour shortages just about everywhere.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Thank you, Ms. Ashton and Mr. Grenier.

That's all the time we have for the first part of the meeting. We have to suspend the meeting temporarily at 4:45 p.m. in order to do the sound tests for the next witnesses.

Thank you, witnesses, for coming and sharing your knowledge with us. If you feel that additional information should be sent to us, please do not hesitate to forward it to our clerk. She will transmit all written information to the committee members. Please note that this written information carries the same weight as testimony.

I'm suspending the meeting for a few minutes.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

We are resuming the meeting.

I welcome the witnesses who are participating via videoconference in the second hour of our meeting.

To begin, we welcome Mr. Pierre-Marcel Desjardins, professor from the Université de Moncton. The last time I saw him, I'd say his hair and beard were a little less white.

We also have with us Mr. Kenneth Deveau, from the Conseil de développement économique de la Nouvelle-Écosse.

Mr. Desjardins is from southeastern New Brunswick, in Acadia; and Mr. Deveau is from Baie Sainte-Marie, in Nova Scotia.

Welcome, dear friends.

You each have about five minutes to present your statements. I'm adamant about sticking to the five-minute time limit, because that gives committee members more time to ask questions. Afterwards, there will be the interactive question and answer period with the various representatives of our political parties, who are quite sedate these days, given the times.

That said, we'll start with Mr. Desjardins, who has five minutes.

[Pierre-Marcel Desjardins, Professor, University of Moncton, As an Individual]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

My name is Pierre-Marcel Desjardins. I'm a professor of economics at the Université de Moncton. I've worn other hats, including that of chair of the board of RDEE Canada for two years.

I'd like to submit four points to you.

Firstly, it often happens in economics that we don't give enough importance to what we might call transaction costs. Language is one element. There is geographical proximity, historical proximity, but also cultural proximity, including language. According to forecasts on the growth of the world's French-speaking population, the proportion of the world's francophone population is becoming increasingly important, mainly because of what is happening in Africa.

Secondly, when we need access to a workforce, sometimes the statistic we refer to is mother tongue—this is often an important point for companies. Alberta, for example, has 79,000 native French speakers, but 260,000 people who can speak French. When it comes to economic development, it's often just as important to look at the ability to converse in French when we do our analysis.

Thirdly, when we talk about bilingualism or the French fact—I have the New Brunswick context in mind in many of my references—we often get the impression that it's the bilingual people, mainly the francophones, who benefit. I'm referring here to what are commonly known as call centres or customer contact centres. In general, in New Brunswick, the percentage of the workforce that is unilingual English-speaking, i.e., speaks only English, is 56%. However, in customer contact centres, this percentage is 66%.

Remember that when you call a toll-free number, you're told to press 1 if you want to speak French and 2 if you want to speak English. Technology directs calls to the right place. Unilingual English speakers benefit from the presence of the French-speaking community and bilingualism.

Finally, fourthly, in my studies, particularly in Atlantic Canada and more specifically in New Brunswick, when you look at the averages, it may seem that the francophone community is perhaps underperforming economically. However, when you look at the situation in individual counties, francophones are generally more successful than their anglophone fellow residents in the same county. In fact, francophones are mostly concentrated in rural areas, while anglophones are mostly concentrated in urban settings.

I heard testimony from the two people who appeared before me. When we talk about public policy, it's extremely important to have policies that encourage rural development, because that's where francophones are concentrated. Often, when people move to more urban environments, mainly for economic and financial reasons, the rate of assimilation increases.

Among the targeted programs, we can think of early childhood, whose services should be offered in French. They shouldn't even be bilingual, but in French. We need schools, government services, arts and culture services in French. All the French-language services we're able to bring to rural areas contribute to the growth of francophone minority communities, some of which are often concentrated in more rural areas.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Thank you, Mr. Desjardins.

I now give the floor to Mr. Deveau, from the Conseil de développement économique de la Nouvelle-Écosse.

Mr. Deveau, you have a maximum of five minutes.

[Kenneth Deveau, Chief Executive Officer, Conseil de développement économique de la Nouvelle-Écosse]

Thank you for this opportunity. I hope to be as effective as Mr. Desjardins.

My name is Kenneth Deveau and I am the executive director of the Conseil de développement économique de la Nouvelle-Écosse. I have a doctorate in education from the Université de Moncton. I was vice-rector of Université Sainte-Anne, as well as director and founder of Invest Nova Scotia, of which I was also vice-chair and chair. Recently, I completed the MIT Regional Entrepreneurship Acceleration Program. So I've gone from education at the beginning of my career, to economic development. Today, I'm going to try to make the connection between these two fields, share my thoughts with you, and perhaps make some suggestions.

Basically, we're talking about the vitality of our official language minority communities, or OLMCs. A community's vitality is defined by its ability to maintain itself as a distinct entity and to flourish within that context, and it can be summed up in three points: the status of the group, its language and culture, its institutional completeness and, of course, demographic factors. The latter receives much of our attention, but they are often the consequence of the other two factors.

Let's talk about status first. In economics, the language of business is English, whether in our communities, nationally or internationally. I've listened to the previous testimony. However, there are areas where French has a special status, and we should focus more on these areas when it comes to commercial exchanges for our communities. I'm thinking in particular of Quebec. Could we promote more trade between Baie Sainte-Marie and Quebec, for example? Are there specific domains where we could do more? It would be better to work in areas of endeavour that are already established, rather than trying to create new ones. I'm thinking in particular of culture and education. You've already talked about institutions and explored the question of education. Education, from pre-school to post-secondary, is an important factor contributing to the economic development and vitality of our communities. This has been studied extensively.

On the economic front, I'll focus on post-secondary education, to keep it brief. In Nova Scotia, after seafood products like fish and lobster especially, the export product that brings in the most revenue is post-secondary education. Université Sainte-Anne plays a major role in this. In Nova Scotia, foreign students are very important to the francophone economy. They represent more than just tuition fees. They're also a skilled workforce for our entrepreneurs and customers for our businesses. What's more, education is a gateway to international markets, whether in Europe, the Maghreb or sub-Saharan Africa. This is under-exploited, and I'm convinced there's a role for the Conseil de développement économique de la Nouvelle‑Écosse to play here. There are under-exploited opportunities that we need to explore further.

Finally, I'll address the demographic issue, which is very important. Mobility means we're losing our young people, and that's a double loss. They're leaving our regions, like Madawaska—as you know, Mr. Arseneault—to pursue post-secondary education. We're losing not only our young people, but also the future leaders of our communities. The best and the brightest leave us and often don't come back. How can we bring them back? Before, we were looking to develop businesses. Now, given flexible working patterns, there may be more opportunities to explore.

We've also talked about immigration here at this committee. Francophone immigration is one of the priorities of the Canadian francophonie, the Government of Canada and the governments of certain provinces. Later, I'd like to tell you about a project of the Conseil de développement économique de la Nouvelle-Écosse, concerning St. Mary's Bay. I'll use this project to venture to make some recommendations when you ask me questions.

Thank you for your time. I look forward to answering your questions.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Thank you, Mr. Deveau.

In the first round of questions, each political party will have six minutes.

Mr. Godin, the committee's first chair, will begin this round.

Mr. Godin, you have six minutes.

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to clarify that I'm not the chair of the committee; I'm the first vice-chair. You are the chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Indeed, you are the first vice-chair of the committee. Sorry.

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

Mr. Desjardins and Mr. Deveau, thank you for being here this afternoon.

What I heard was good to hear. In my opinion, you can give us many suggestions to equip minority regions, so that they remain attractive and prosper more.

My first question is for you, Mr. Desjardins. Do you have access to all the data needed to paint a proper picture of the situation of francophone entrepreneurs?

[Pierre-Marcel Desjardins]

The difficulty lies in defining “francophone entrepreneur”.

Is it the entrepreneur who speaks French, but whose employees speak English? Is it foreign ownership? Nailing down this definition is often the biggest challenge. Even with Statistics Canada censuses, it's not easy to access this information. Even if a definition could be found, obtaining the information needed to conduct analyses on business people would remain a challenge.

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

If I understand correctly, this would be a very important tool to be able to conduct economic development based on the French language in minority communities, and development based on the English language in Quebec. That said, let's focus more on French-speaking regions.

If I understand correctly, you can still define certain categories, such as francophone entrepreneurship, francophone customers and bilingualism. However, you say that Statistics Canada should give you access to this data, since it would allow you to be even more effective.

Is that correct?

[Pierre-Marcel Desjardins]

Yes, that's right.

The data we use is often census data. We're not necessarily offered the data to analyze a company's structure. Instead, we are given access to data related to places of residence and households. The data are therefore more related to employees, and not to the business environment.

We have statistics on language of work, but these don't allow us to connect that with types of business and markets. For example, we don't know whether these companies export to French-speaking markets. We need to make all these links to get a complete picture of the situation. Often, we have to conduct surveys and interview people in a company to build up a socio-demographic profile of a region. For example, I've done studies comparing Gaspésie with northern New Brunswick. It can be done. However, it's much more complex to compare companies in Gaspésie to companies in New Brunswick.

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

It's not the same reality, indeed.

Thank you, Mr. Desjardins.

Mr. Deveau, earlier you said that foreign students were very important for maintaining the economic vitality of official language minority communities. There's the demographics, but there's also the economic impact.

Can you tell us a little more about that?

[Kenneth Deveau]

Yes, certainly.

According to the Conseil de développement économique de la Nouvelle‑Écosse, international students are a clientele, but they're also a resource. Indeed, international students who settle in our regions, even for a short time, patronize local businesses. For a rural region like St. Mary's Bay, this is an important clientele. For our businesses and employers, it's also a highly skilled workforce.

Personally, I think there's an under-exploited international business opportunity here, given the ties we could have with foreign countries.

I'd like to come back to your question, which was about research.

In addition to Statistics Canada data, we need to equip organizations, like the Conseil de développement économique de la Nouvelle-Écosse, so that they can establish partnerships with researchers like Mr. Desjardins, and study the economy of our regions. That way, we'd have fewer problems when we set up projects, thinking they're a good idea but without having the evidence to make the right decisions at the right times.

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Deveau.

My next questions will be for both of you, Mr. Desjardins and Mr. Deveau.

Would it be possible to send the committee best practices from official language minority communities? This could provide inspiration for all communities in Canada.

Also, would it be possible to suggest additional tools that would be necessary?

We talked about statistical data. I think that's a very important element, but surely there are other data. Our speaking time is limited, but I'd like to take this opportunity to ask you to send us these answers in writing. This would enable us to prepare a better report and invite the government to be more proactive, and to take the right steps with regard to the attractiveness of these communities. This attractiveness must be maintained. We also need to retain our knowledge and our young people. Finally, we need to keep foreign workers and students here. We need to make our communities more attractive and function even better, in addition to encouraging people to use French.

[Pierre-Marcel Desjardins]

It would be our pleasure to do so.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Thank you, Mr. Godin.

The next questions from the Liberals will come to us from the shyest member of the group, Mr. Darrell Samson.

Mr. Samson, you have the floor for six minutes.

[Darrell Samson, Liberal, Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I also thank you, Mr. Desjardins and Mr. Deveau.

Mr. Deveau, it's always a pleasure to see you back in top form. I know you love the research field, so you jumped at the chance to come and see us. That's what I realized with my colleague Mr. Godin, and I find this essential.

Two issues are close to my heart. The first is about RDEE, the Réseau de développement économique et d'employabilité, which you know very well. At the Sommet national sur la francophonie économique en situation minoritaire, held in 2022, the RDEE explained that it was essential for the government to create a plan dedicated to francophone communities, either an economic plan or a strategy, to achieve its objective.

Do you have any comments on this? What do you think it might look like?

[Pierre-Marcel Desjardins]

Among the factors identified were early childhood and immigration, as they often go hand in hand. Immigrants want their children to grow up in French. When they arrive in francophone minority communities outside Quebec, having access to early childhood services in French becomes attractive for them. Among those factors was also the issue of schools. Often, immigrants who settle in regions where French is not the majority language still want the opportunity to raise their children in French. It goes beyond simply speaking French at home. So—

[Darrell Samson, Liberal, Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS]

Thank you for your answer, Mr. Desjardins. I don't want the answer to my question to focus on immigration as such.

I will ask Mr. Deveau if he can add to the debate on this issue.

[Kenneth Deveau]

Thank you for this opportunity, Mr. Samson.

Again, I'll go back to the idea of coming up with a thoughtful, progressive strategy based on research. I really believe that research is of the utmost importance. There is university research, but there is also a lot of applied research going on as we develop our projects. I'll give you an example of a project that we are in the process of preparing, in St. Marys Bay—

[Darrell Samson, Liberal, Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS]

I'm sorry to interrupt. I know you want to talk about that, but I'm not going to let you because it's my time and I don't want to lose my second question, which is also important. I'm sure someone else will let you follow up on that. That said, you can certainly send us that example, which would be very useful for the committee.

So, Mr. Deveau, we know that young people are leaving our communities and that we have to put an end to that. We also know that the young people in our minority communities have a great sense of innovation and a great deal of creativity.

What can we do to work with young people, to stimulate their interest, so that they would create in the communities instead of having to go to the big cities? It would be important to look at that.

My question is for Mr. Deveau.

[Kenneth Deveau]

Okay. Thank you for your question, which I am happy to answer.

First, some young people from our regions are extremely qualified and live in major Canadian cities, which are experiencing serious housing problems. We have connectivity issues in our regions. Addressing those issues and developing strategies that would support people working remotely would help bring back young people who have potential and who are able to exercise leadership in our regions, from our regions. Organizations like the Conseil de développement économique could create these strategies.

Statistics actually show that the majority of entrepreneurs start their business after the age of 40. If we can bring young people of that age back to the communities, we will have budding entrepreneurs to make our regions prosper. That would bring capital to our regions, which is really the crux of the matter.

[Darrell Samson, Liberal, Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS]

Mr. Desjardins, do you want to add anything on this? I'm giving you the opportunity.