Official Languages Committee on Feb. 12th, 2024

[Karen Greve Young]

Futurpreneur is currently up for funding renewal with the federal government. The federal government's funds help us to ensure that we can deliver our services. As I said, we seamlessly deliver our services in French or English. However, we need funding in order to employ the people who work with entrepreneurs and give them mentorship and funding.

To be honest, I think more of what the government is currently doing to support those organizations that are supporting francophones outside of Quebec.... We partner with them today and we'd like to continue partnering. We need to continue doing our work in order to make that happen. We do provide everything in both languages today. I think the fact that the government celebrates both languages is brilliant.

I know that I'm not getting exactly to the answer that you were asking me for, but I'm feeling very supported. I hope we are supporting entrepreneurs as they would like to be supported wherever they are.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Thank you, Ms. Young.

That's all the time we have for Monsieur Godin.

I now give the floor to Angelo Iacono of the Liberal Party for six minutes.

[Angelo Iacono, Liberal, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses for being here today.

Mr. Grenier, your area of expertise, economics, obviously relates to bilingualism, language of work, minority languages and immigrants. This committee is mandated to reflect on issues directly affecting official language minority communities, particularly francophone communities outside Quebec.

Most of the articles you've written concern the situation in Montreal or, more generally, in Quebec. Do you have any knowledge of the economic situation of francophone communities outside Quebec?

[Gilles Grenier]

Yes, a little.

You're right to say that most of the articles I've written have focused on Quebec, and especially on Montreal. That said, some 20 years ago, I wrote an article on francophones in Ontario and New Brunswick. More recently, I had a master's student update my results from that study. As I said in my presentation, the update showed a significant improvement in the economic status of New Brunswick francophones. Their level of education had finally caught up with that of anglophones. When we analyzed income, we didn't see any significant wage gap between francophones and anglophones. At times, we even noted a positive difference in favour of francophones.

From the perspective of—

[Angelo Iacono, Liberal, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Grenier.

Mr. Chair, could we ask the witness to provide us with that new data as soon as it's been updated? Thank you.

I have another question for you, Mr. Grenier.

Last November, the Government of Canada announced new immigration targets. By 2026, the government wants to integrate 6%, 7% and then 8% francophone immigrants.

What do you think of these new targets?

[Gilles Grenier]

I think they're very ambitious and I'm not sure we'll be able to meet them. The federal government has long had targets for francophone immigration outside Quebec, that is to say to attract francophone immigrants to provinces other than Quebec, but, as I understand it, those targets were met only once. In my opinion, significantly increasing immigration levels for the next few years to nearly 500,000 immigrants a year will make it even more difficult for francophone communities to meet those targets.

I nevertheless encourage the government to make an effort to ensure that we have francophone immigrants. There are good francophone immigration pools around the world. For example, people from Haiti, Morocco and Algeria come to Canada to study or work here, as do many people from France. Most of them go to Quebec, but many could settle in Ontario or other provinces as well.

[Angelo Iacono, Liberal, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

That's perfect.

What could Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship Canada do to increase the pool of potential candidates and improve recruitment?

[Gilles Grenier]

It's not easy, because the pool of immigrants who will integrate into English is much larger than the pool into French. English is the world language. Currently, the vast majority of immigrants to Canada come from China, India, the Philippines and other Asian countries. Although those countries are not predominantly anglophone, English is the prevailing second language. Immigrants from those countries therefore tend to integrate into English. Even if they go to Quebec, it's very difficult to integrate them into French.

The francophone pool is always smaller. Despite that, French is not a dead language in the world. It remains a key international language. North African countries like Algeria and Morocco are important for francophone immigration. In addition, sub-Saharan African countries, particularly those in West Africa, such as Côte d'Ivoire, Senegal and Congo, are sending more and more immigrants to Quebec, but they could send immigrants to the other Canadian provinces too.

There are good francophone immigration pools in Quebec and outside Quebec.

[Angelo Iacono, Liberal, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

I'm pleased to hear you say that the French language is not dead.

Recently, Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship Canada announced a new immigration policy. Would you like to share your comments on it with our committee?

[Gilles Grenier]

I imagine you're talking about the policy to admit 500,000 immigrants a year. Personally, I find that this policy aims to bring in too many immigrants. I've expressed that opinion in the past, particularly when I've made suggestions for Quebec. I've always thought that Quebec's immigration levels were reasonable, but that the projected targets for the rest of Canada were much too high.

We're now seeing the consequences of that. Just look at the housing crisis. Canada's population, particularly Ontario's, has grown so rapidly that we now have a housing shortage that's making it hard to integrate immigrants.

I think Canada's immigration policy has set targets far too high. They're perhaps twice what they were five or six years ago.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Thank you, Mr. Grenier. You will certainly be able to provide more details in the next round of questions.

It's now the Bloc Québécois's turn. Mr. Beaulieu, you have the floor for six minutes.

[Mario Beaulieu, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses.

Mr. Grenier, in 2019, you published an article entitled “Quebec's language policy and economic globalization”. According to the summary, francophones in Quebec have seen their purchasing power improve and now have better control over the economy. However, in the labour market, working in English pays more than working in French, particularly for immigrants.

This committee has seen studies that tended to say the opposite, that is to say that anglophones are apparently poorer and experience more unemployment, for example. However, those studies were based on the first official language spoken and the median.

You have studied the language of work aspect more. Can you tell us a little more about that?

[Gilles Grenier]

A number of methodologies can be used to compare wages and incomes. Depending on which one is used, results can vary.

As for the method I used, I don't necessarily want to get into the technical details. Economists who compare wages usually use microdata. It's called the human capital earnings function. This tool completes a regression analysis of wages using such variables as education, experience, employment and other characteristics. We added language of work to the explanatory variables. We had controls on acceptable and reasonable differences in wages, and we were trying to see what impact the language of work had on wages.

For immigrants in Montreal, we did end up with the somewhat disappointing result that it was more profitable to work in English than in French. You have to understand that it's much harder for immigrants in Montreal. We want them to learn French, so we offer them French courses. However, when they enter the labour market, French is often not enough and they also need to learn English to function properly.

So Quebec is in a somewhat unique situation compared to the rest of Canada. In Toronto, there is only one language: Everyone has to learn English. On the other hand, in Quebec the government wants immigrants to learn French, and that's not always easy. They also have to learn English. Immigrants from francophone countries often have limited knowledge of English when they arrive. So it's a bigger challenge for Quebec than it is for the rest of Canada.

[Mario Beaulieu, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

You also said that, despite the progress made by francophones, the decline of French in Quebec is a cause for concern. The challenge is to integrate more immigrants into the francophone majority. The federal government recently said that it also had a mandate to protect and promote French in Quebec, and that's something quite new.

Isn't it somewhat inconsistent that in Quebec, for example, all funding for programs supporting the economic development of official language minority communities is allocated to English, or to strengthening anglophone economic development, particularly to support groups that promote recruiting immigrants to fill anglophone positions?

[Gilles Grenier]

I don't want to venture too far into anglophones' needs in Quebec. I think English is already very alluring in Quebec. We don't need to work to get more people to speak English.

I can't say any more in that respect.

[Mario Beaulieu, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

You stated that the economic situation for francophones in Ontario and Quebec had improved.

Could the fact that they speak more English and work more in English be one of the factors that explains that?

[Gilles Grenier]

Yes, up to a point. More and more francophones have become bilingual over the past 20 or 30 years.

In today's world, English is an international language, a bridge language. If you go to Europe, you'll see that people complain about the value placed on English and the dangers it poses. So we're not the only ones in this situation in Quebec, but we can deal with it. It's okay to use English to a certain extent, to communicate with people abroad, but there's still room for French. It remains a key international language. It's spoken in Africa, Asia and the Americas.

As an economist, I think that French must be able to compete with English. We know that English is so predominant around the world that French could never replace it, but other languages, including French, must be able to compete with English, and certain activities, such as scientific research and business, must be conducted in French.

[Mario Beaulieu, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

I think that a number of countries, such as Italy, are also experiencing this phenomenon, but Italians still retain their place in the labour market and in the economy.

[Gilles Grenier]

The difference is that Italians, for example, learn English as a second language, but speak Italian at home in their country. In Quebec, the problem is that there's a large anglophone community—

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Thank you very much, Mr. Grenier. That's all the time we have.

Ms. Ashton, you have the floor for six minutes.

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill—Keewatinook Aski, MB]

Thank you very much.

I'd first like to ask Ms. Greve Young a question about the barriers entrepreneurs are facing.

On a number of occasions, this committee has heard about the lack of French-language child care services across the country and, more generally, the lack of affordable child care services.

Can you tell us how important access to child care is for the entrepreneurs you work with who are pursuing business opportunities?

[Karen Greve Young]

Access to child care is a priority for both women and men entrepreneurs under 40 whom we support. They are into the child-bearing years. In fact, some of the entrepreneurs we've supported have started day cares for their communities. Those are the businesses because there is so much demand. In fact, several of those businesses are francophone child care centres outside Quebec. As you identify, that is very much a need that we've seen. That's anecdotal.

I would say that entrepreneurs' most valuable resources are their time, the money they need and the advice that they get. Child care that frees up their time to do their business is a need. I don't have hard data on that, but anecdotally, yes. They also need funding, and they need funding without fear of discrimination. That's something we provide. That's why having it available and adjudicated in both languages is important wherever entrepreneurs are. They also need mentorship and coaching, and they need mentorship and coaching in the language that they're most comfortable in—either French or English.

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill—Keewatinook Aski, MB]

Thank you very much for sharing that. It's great to hear about the work the entrepreneurs you're working with are doing on child care services—especially francophone child care services.

Mr. Grenier, as we know, the federal government recognizes the need to financially support federal public servants who speak both official languages. It also recognizes the need to ensure that they have access to language training services.

Do you feel it's important that this approach be applied to other occupations in Canada?

[Gilles Grenier]

Should we encourage bilingualism in the private sector or in other occupations in the same way we're trying to do in the federal public service? Certainly.

I think we should have more bilingual people in Canada, more people who speak French. A lot of anglophones learn French through French immersion programs. Unfortunately, they rarely have the opportunity to practise it because they work mainly in English. I think we should strive to ensure that workplaces in Canada become much more bilingual, as is the case in Quebec to some extent.

In Quebec, it's perfectly normal to work in both languages. For example, in restaurants in Montreal, they ask customers if they want to be served in French or English. I'd like us to do the same in Ottawa, and I'd like servers to let us to order in the language of our choice. However, we often don't do it because we're afraid the person won't understand us.

In my opinion, we should encourage more and more people to work in both official languages. That would distinguish us as Canadians. It would make us stand out from Americans. In Canada we speak two languages, and in the United States they speak only one.

Does that answer your question?

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill—Keewatinook Aski, MB]

Yes. That's a good suggestion.

The committee has talked a lot about the link between education and economic development. As we know, there's a huge shortage of French-speaking teachers across Canada. Our schools and day cares need teachers and educators.

Do you think it would be important for the federal government to commit to finding solutions, in partnership with the provinces and organizations involved in education, to address this labour shortage? Would it also mean finding solutions in terms of economic development?