Official Languages Committee on Feb. 29th, 2024

[Raymond Théberge]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Thank you, Mr. Godin and Mr. Théberge.

I will be strict with your speaking time so we can have a second round of questions.

The next questions will be from Mr. Drouin and Mr. Samson, who will share six minutes.

[Darrell Samson, Liberal, Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

So we will have two rounds in the end? If so, we will not have to share our speaking time.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

There might be a second round, but it will be short.

[Darrell Samson, Liberal, Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS]

Okay, we will share our speaking time then.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Thank you. Go ahead.

[Francis Drouin, Liberal, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you very much for being here with us, Commissioner. In the interest of transparency, I have to say that I know one of your assistant commissioners very well. He is a good person and I want to say hello to him. I do not know the other assistant commissioner as well.

You sent a letter to the committee asking us to study bilingualism in the senior ranks of the public service, which is in fact why you are here today.

I remember how things were 10 or 15 years ago, and I think you referred to it: when a senior official was hired, they were sent for French training. Who is responsible for confirming that the official is truly bilingual after completing that training? Is there any follow-up in the senior public service, in your experience, or rather was the person sent for training and there was no follow-up once they came back?

[Raymond Théberge]

When a person is sent for language training, for various positions they have to reach a certain level and take tests to prove that they have reached a certain level in oral expression, written expression and comprehension.

Are senior officials subject to the same tests? In some cases, they certainly would be. Yet the new approach in the act does not say much about that.

[Francis Drouin, Liberal, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

I support the principle for Governor-in-Council appointments and the level of bilingualism required in such cases.

On the other hand, what can be done to ensure that unilingual francophones, who might be very good people, can also have access to those positions, especially considering that certain appointments are for a specific region or for an organization that focuses on certain criteria in certain regions?

Perhaps we will invite you back later on if we undertake that study, but as to unilingual francophones, I know some in Eastern Ontario who do not speak a word of English. I'm sure it's the same in both western Canada, where some people do not speak French, and in Quebec, where some people don't speak English.

[Raymond Théberge]

You have to remember that, wherever you are in Canada now, there is diversity. That diversity includes both official languages. There is a short-term approach and a long-term approach. The long-term approach is to have programs that give students access to second-language training. In the short term, we can offer training to candidates.

I remember Mr. Michael Ferguson, a former Auditor General. He did not speak French when he was appointed, but he learned to speak it very well after taking training.

The conditions have to be created so those people can apply as candidates. If it is not clear that there are opportunities to become bilingual, that means that it might not be as important as it should be. The act has been in effect for more than 50 years, and we are still asking the same questions. How can that be after so many years?

[Darrell Samson, Liberal, Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS]

Mr. Chair, I have two minutes left, is that right?

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

You have a minute and a half, Mr. Samson, but you will have a full five minutes in the second round of questions.

So you may continue if you wish, Mr. Drouin.

[Francis Drouin, Liberal, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

Great, thank you.

In its study, what parameters do you think the committee should use in examining this issue?

[Raymond Théberge]

First, you have to really understand how things are now. There are hundreds of appointments. To what extent was bilingualism a definite or important asset? What is the rate of those appointments?

It would also be helpful to identify the trends in those appointments over a certain period. Radio-Canada reported recently that the number of francophones appointed dropped last year. Was that an anomaly? As Mr. Bernard Derome wondered, is it a trend that might continue?

If there is a declining trend, it needs to be corrected. First you will need the numbers, the data and the statistics. You will also have to consider who is responsible for managing those appointments, specifically the secretariat responsible for senior officials.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Thank you, Commissioner and Mr. Drouin.

The next questions will be from the second vice-chair of the committee, who represents the Bloc Québécois.

Mr. Beaulieu, you have the floor for six minutes.

[Mario Beaulieu, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Commissioner, I would like to hear about how things are now, particularly at the RCMP, and the appointment of high-ranking unilingual officers to supposedly bilingual positions.

The RCMP commissioner admitted to the committee that there are no French-essential positions in Quebec, and said that even he did not understand why there are unilingual English positions elsewhere in Canada, but no French-essential positions in Quebec.

[Raymond Théberge]

The situation at the RCMP is worrisome, especially in senior management. There are training programs, but for operational reasons management is unable to let people take them. Saying it is not possible for operational reasons is a ready excuse.

For a long time, the RCMP has had trouble living up to its official languages obligations in terms of communicating with the public and employee training. In my opinion, it is a question of organizational culture. I will soon be meeting with the commissioner to ask why it is taking so long for the RCMP to live up to its obligations.

[Mario Beaulieu, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

The situation seems to have deteriorated, because there isn't even any training in French any more. Training is offered in English only or in a bilingual format, but we know that when training is bilingual, it favours English, in general.

[Raymond Théberge]

Still, there's an interesting situation I'd like to point out. Many young cadets don't speak English when they go to Depot Division, which is the Royal Canadian Mounted Police Academy based in Regina. The RCMP does a lot of work in western Canada and the Maritimes. In the west, they very often work in English, so they have to give training to these young cadets from Quebec.

However, most of the complaints we receive afterwards don't concern English training, but rather French training, obviously. It's a situation that's been going on for a long time.

[Mario Beaulieu, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

Earlier, you said you didn't want to comment on whether the government respects the spirit of the new Official Languages Act resulting from Bill C‑13.

Recently, we've seen that the percentage of francophones appointed to key positions, that is to say federal political appointments, has dropped to an unprecedented level, from 24% to 21%. This aspect touches tangentially on what you're saying about bilingual positions. It seems to me that we don't see any political will to improve the situation since the situation started deteriorating.

[Raymond Théberge]

This is a percentage that concerns me. As I said earlier, you have to ask yourself whether this is an anomaly or whether it's a downward trend that's going to continue. When you see something like that, you have to react immediately. For example, this year, the number of appointments is not up to the mark. So we have to ask ourselves whether this trend is set to continue. I'm repeating myself, but, if it is a trend, it's very worrying.

[Mario Beaulieu, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

Another factor concerns Quebec. I'm told that the federal government admits it has a responsibility to defend and promote French in Quebec as well. Yet we heard from the Public Service Alliance of Canada's regional executive vice-president for the Quebec region, who told us that there is indeed systemic discrimination in federal institutions in Quebec, namely the assumption that everything happens in English first. We've had many examples of federal institutions operating essentially in English, including the Immigration and Refugee Board of Canada and the Canada Border Services Agency. There has even been one case where a lawyer was refused permission to plead in French.

Do you see any solutions on the horizon to improve the situation in Quebec?

[Raymond Théberge]

The objective of the new act is the protection and promotion of French, not only in Quebec, but across Canada. We recognize that the French language is a minority language in Canada and North America.

That said, we're still in the very early stages of implementing the new act. However, if we look at the 2021 figures for the French-speaking population, I think it's important for the government to take action to support French.

[Mario Beaulieu, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

In your opinion, is there a solution on the horizon to improve the prevalence of French in federal institutions in Quebec?

[Raymond Théberge]

For the time being, no.