Official Languages Committee on Feb. 29th, 2024

[Mario Beaulieu, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

That is a very disturbing observation.

You said earlier that in the absence of clear guidelines for positions, you don't see any change on the horizon. What would clear guidelines to improve the situation look like?

[Raymond Théberge]

I've talked a lot about the appointment of deputy ministers and associate deputy ministers. Indeed, there should not be a directive, but a much more prescriptive instrument. For example, if a person appointed to a senior management position does not master the second language, they must undergo training and reach a certain level of competence, which is measured. During their absence, it is important for the administration to ensure that their duties are carried out by someone who is bilingual, since the position is bilingual. Afterwards, there is also a follow-up in terms of—

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Thank you, Commissioner. You'll have another chance to speak later, but I want us to have a second round of questions.

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

What the Commissioner has to say is interesting.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

I know, it is interesting, but I have to give everyone the same chance to speak.

We turn it over to Ms. Ashton of the NDP, who is speaking to us from her beautiful region of northern Manitoba.

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill—Keewatinook Aski, MB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Commissioner, welcome once again to our committee.

In your 2022-2023 Annual Report, you recommended that the President of the Treasury Board, the Minister for Official Languages and the Clerk of the Privy Council “measure the actual capacity of federal public servants to work in the official language of their choice in regions designated bilingual for language-of-work purposes.” How do you think ministers should go about implementing your recommendations?

[Raymond Théberge]

Up until 2017-18, I think, there were questions in the federal public servant questionnaire about the use of official languages, including one in particular about the use of official languages in writing in their work. That question was removed from the survey. As a result, it's difficult for us to obtain data on the extent to which bilingualism is alive and well in the federal government, the extent to which English-speaking or French-speaking public servants can use the language of their choice, or the extent to which they are supervised in French. We don't have data on this, and unfortunately, without it, it's hard to take a position one way or the other.

If memory serves, the last time we had data, 62% of public servants said they were able to write in French, while 93% of anglophones were able to write in English. So we could already see that people did not necessarily find it as easy to use the language of their choice. In terms of supervision, it's the same thing, but we don't have much data, unless I'm mistaken.

What's important is that the public service, through the Treasury Board or some other agency, gives itself tools to measure the use of both official languages in the workplace.

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill—Keewatinook Aski, MB]

All right. Thank you very much. It is worrying that this form of data collection is no longer there.

I'd like to ask you another question. Your report states that from April 1, 2022, to March 31, 2023, some 714 complaints were received about public institutions allegedly failing to establish the language profiles of certain positions objectively. This number is three times higher than it was last year. Why is the government unable to solve this problem? What do you think should be done?

[Raymond Théberge]

This is what we call the problem with section 91 of the Official Languages Act, which says that every position must be evaluated on the basis of the language requirements needed to do the job. This section has always been poorly understood by managers, which has led to a systemic problem. Whether we receive 300, 600 or 1,000 complaints about this section, it's a systemic problem throughout the federal government. Every time we have a position to fill, it's extremely important to analyze its language requirements.

We published a report in 2020. We're currently in the follow-up phase of our recommendations, which means I can't necessarily tell you what the results are. I would, however, like to see changes in the way section 91 is applied in the public service. First, all managers should be educated on the use of this section, which, by the way, does not apply to positions filled by Governor in Council appointments.

This would be fundamental to building a bilingual capacity that would not only deliver services, but also ensure that anyone is able to work in the official language of their choice within the federal apparatus.

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill—Keewatinook Aski, MB]

All right. Thank you.

In your Annual Report 2022-2023, you recommended that the sitting president of Treasury Board implement her three-year action plan to ensure that federal institutions comply with section 91 of the Official Languages Act by June 2025, at the latest.

Do you think the current President of Treasury Board will implement it by then? What would be your message regarding the timeline you're aiming for?

[Raymond Théberge]

The year 2025 is fast approaching.

I can say that there is currently a task force within the government working on this issue, precisely to move things forward. Will they meet the deadline? I don't know, but there's work going on right now as a result of our recommendation and our special report.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

You have just under 30 seconds of speaking time left, Ms. Ashton.

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill—Keewatinook Aski, MB]

Thank you. Will we have another two-and-a-half-minute round of questions, Mr. Chair?

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Yes, absolutely.

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill—Keewatinook Aski, MB]

All right. I'll ask my question then.

Thank you very much, Commissioner.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Thank you very much. We'll now begin a second, disciplined round of questions. Conservatives Ms. Kusie and Mr. Godin will share the next five minutes.

You have the floor, Ms. Kusie.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I will be sharing this question period with Mr. Godin. I'm going to ask my questions for the first four minutes. Then I'll give the floor to Mr. Godin.

Thank you again for the warm welcome. This is my second time on the committee. It's true that it takes a lot of courage to learn a second language. Even if I make mistakes, I still speak it.

I'm here as the member of Parliament for Calgary Midnapore, but also as the Official Opposition critic for Treasury Board. So I'll continue with some of the questions Ms. Ashton asked.

Mr. Théberge, several departments are responsible for official languages: Canadian Heritage, Treasury Board, the Department of Justice and Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship Canada, not to mention your office. Do you think it would be better to centralize power at Treasury Board to improve enforcement of the act?

[Raymond Théberge]

The bill that has been passed, Bill C‑13, does indeed give new obligations to Treasury Board. In particular, it is responsible for the governance of the act, i.e., its implementation. In my opinion, this implies that Treasury Board must provide direction to the federal government on the implementation of the act. Canadian Heritage also has a role to play, especially with regard to part VII. However, in terms of governance, it is extremely important, in my opinion, that there be a single conductor, not several. Nor should we forget the Action Plan for Official Languages 2023-2028: protection-promotion-collaboration. We need to ensure good governance of the action plan.

So, what are needed are clear, even prescriptive, directives from Treasury Board for the implementation of the act. In addition, it's important to remember that, in promoting compliance, we mustn't overlook the fact that for 50 years we've had a law that was difficult to enforce due to lack of understanding. Now we have a new one, with new obligations. It's extremely important that this law be well understood by the federal apparatus and Treasury Board has an important role to play in this regard.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

So it seems obvious to me that it would be much better to have centralized power.

[Raymond Théberge]

Yes. I'll use the analogy of the conductor. Different departments have responsibilities, such as Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship Canada and Canadian Heritage, and the action plan must also be implemented. However, for the entire federal apparatus, it's important that there be a body responsible for implementation and governance.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

Are you worried about the future of the French language in Canada?

[Raymond Théberge]

If you look at the statistics from 2001 to 2021, it's clear that the proportion of francophones is declining in Canada, and even in Quebec. I think that from 2001 to 2021, the proportion of francophones across the country fell by 23%, especially outside Quebec. We've found ways to counter this decline somewhat, but yes, I worry about the vitality of francophone communities outside Quebec.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

Thank you very much. I yield the floor to Mr. Godin, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Mr. Godin, you have 45 seconds.

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Commissioner, I'm going to ask my questions in quick succession. First, do you believe that the Minister of Canadian Heritage should testify before the Standing Committee on Official Languages, given that her department has a role to play under the act?